A question for atheists.
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09-03-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: A question for atheists.
You have made some interesting assertions.

Do you mind my asking how you know
1) archeology proves that none of the first 5 books happened as stated?

2) The Bible is a collection of myths, as opposed to theological interpretation of history?

3) Israel was an insignificant tribe?

4) Israel was a desert tribe when the books of the Bible were composed? The authors were sitting around in the desert writing these books? From where did they get paper & ink in the desert? Or do you suppose they were chiseling it on rock in the desert -- with what kind of chisels? & what kind of hammers?

5) only gained significance after Rome became an empire?



(09-03-2014 10:58 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 10:28 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  While I know that most of you find it more appropriate to challenge the theists on why they believe that they believe, I'd like you to take the road less traveled...

What positive argument(s) or evidence(s) do you have which may convince a theist to change their minds?

Note: I'm not asking you for reasons that COMPEL the theist to change their minds, but rather for reasons that COULD change their minds.

I would truly appreciate your responses, and I hope to see some thought-provoking ones.

Thank you.

















Watch those then try and figure out how the bible can be true when archeology proves that none of the first 5 books happened as stated. The short answer is it ins't the Bible is merely a collection of myths of a relatively insignificant desert tribe that only became important after it was adopted as the backstory to the Cult of the Roman Empire.

Sometimes those who know the least, know the most.
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09-03-2014, 11:24 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 11:30 AM by Revenant77x.)
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 11:10 AM)Agnostic0000 Wrote:  You have made some interesting assertions.

Do you mind my asking how you know
1) archeology proves that none of the first 5 books happened as stated?

2) The Bible is a collection of myths, as opposed to theological interpretation of history?

3) Israel was an insignificant tribe?

4) Israel was a desert tribe when the books of the Bible were composed? The authors were sitting around in the desert writing these books? From where did they get paper & ink in the desert? Or do you suppose they were chiseling it on rock in the desert -- with what kind of chisels? & what kind of hammers?

5) only gained significance after Rome became an empire?



(09-03-2014 10:58 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  















Watch those then try and figure out how the bible can be true when archeology proves that none of the first 5 books happened as stated. The short answer is it ins't the Bible is merely a collection of myths of a relatively insignificant desert tribe that only became important after it was adopted as the backstory to the Cult of the Roman Empire.

#1: Watch the 5 hours of evidence I posted and it will answer your question.

#2: This is just playing with semantics as in essence they mean the same thing. Mythology is always a theological explanation of the past.

#3: Very, the Israelites never held any territory and were used as a buffer state in between the empires of the time (usually Egypt and Assyria) when they were not being conquered outright. Move the tribes say 800 miles to the south and you would never have heard of them. Their occupying one of the Trade routes from Mesopotamia to Egypt is the only reason anyone ever bothered with them.

#4: Trade routes existed even then and they are located right by Egypt (the source of papyrus in the ancient world) but beside that yes most of the early writing was cuneiform clay tablets so I am missing your point.

#5: Yes, without christianity the Hebrew Bible would never have been adopted and even even now it is contorted to remove most of the petty local deity portions of it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-03-2014, 11:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 11:40 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 12:25 AM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 12:10 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  When you study people, you begin to realize why (mostly) men invented religion. Same reasons myths, parables, fables, tall tales and legends happen. Polytheism, paganism, monotheism...Evolution of religion often echos the progress (or lack) in a society.

I think it simply comes from a human obsession with wanting to have an answer for everything. That's usually the big creationist defense: "Oh, well science can't tell me what it was like before the Big Bang? Well, that obviously proves my invisible sky daddy and religious dogma to be true, because it's far more intelligent to make any ridiculous claim than to simply claim that you have not yet found the answer to a question!"

Partly yes, we're also neurologically hard-wired to see faces. We can see them anywhere in clouds, a burnt peice of wood, trees...the way light plays with shadow -- which can be construed as supernatural.

It's also in our nature to take the sting out of things we don't understand. To our ancient ancestors hearing thunder or feeling the ground suddenly move or witnessing a mountain explode -- it's easy to think that must be a god -- even if you don't have a word for it yet.

One of the arguments of early man, is they had no imagination and were incapable of lying (think all those ancient alien stories like Chariots of the Gods) or telling "tall tales" but we also know that's simply not true. I think telling stories came along with learning to speak and developing language. I think those stories would have been more magical in nature -- and the good ones are always handed down and repeated -- altered or reimagined -- and I think in some of those stories are where our earliest myths about gods came from. When the roman empire shifted from polytheism to monotheism, they did one thing that was incredibly important -- they allowed people to keep their feasts (or holidays), and they understood these things were important for their civilization to endure -- for the happiness of the people -- and some complained, but evrentually accepted the change and in a few generations the old polytheistic gods were mostly forgotten. Much of this has to do with a huge confirmation bias that this was right.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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09-03-2014, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 12:06 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 10:28 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  While I know that most of you find it more appropriate to challenge the theists on why they believe that they believe, I'd like you to take the road less traveled...

What positive argument(s) or evidence(s) do you have which may convince a theist to change their minds?

Note: I'm not asking you for reasons that COMPEL the theist to change their minds, but rather for reasons that COULD change their minds.

I would truly appreciate your responses, and I hope to see some thought-provoking ones.

Thank you.

For me I was born an atheist (in the technical way that we all are) and never found compelling reason to "believe".

I'm not an atheist because of the "evidence" or because of compelling arguments that atheism is "correct". If you really understand what atheism means you would realize that would be an nonsensical statement to even make.

For me, it was a lack of reason to believe in anything other than that which is real. If religious belief fit into reality then I would accept it. If not, then how could I? I was told to pretend, or force myself to believe in a fiction (my words, not theirs), but I cannot believe in something I don't believe. I know that sounds obvious, but it's simply the truth. It's why we often ask, "why don't you believe in Zeus" as an illustrative example of why we don't believe in your "god". I would need something from religion to compel me to believe in it. There would have to be something there. I don't see it there.

Now, I do realize your question is what would compel a theist to change their mind, and I'm coming from the perspective of a never-believer, but for me it's as simple as a matter of reality...of what is real. I've studied religions a lot, and have discussed religion with a lot of people. And all I can imagine is, if I were in it myself personally, if I where a theist, I would still have my same brain and same reasoning, and I would be no more convince by religion than I've ever not been. Even if I were currently religious, I wouldn't be able to remain religious because there is nothing compelling there for me to buy into it.

I could state reasons that would compel a theist not to believe in religion, but the most compelling reason to me is that religion lacks a compelling reason to believe in it itself.

...
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09-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
Please put your responses underneath other people's when quoting them Agnostic otherwise it will be really confusing when someone quotes you.
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09-03-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 12:01 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 10:28 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  While I know that most of you find it more appropriate to challenge the theists on why they believe that they believe, I'd like you to take the road less traveled...

What positive argument(s) or evidence(s) do you have which may convince a theist to change their minds?

Note: I'm not asking you for reasons that COMPEL the theist to change their minds, but rather for reasons that COULD change their minds.

I would truly appreciate your responses, and I hope to see some thought-provoking ones.

Thank you.

For me I was born an atheist (in the technical way that we all are) and never found compelling reason to "believe".

I'm not an atheist because of the "evidence" or because of compelling arguments that atheism is "correct". If you really understand what atheism means you would realize that would be an nonsensical statement to even make.

For me, it was a lack of reason to believe in anything other than that which is real. If religious belief fit into reality then I would accept it. If not, then how could I? I was told to pretend, or force myself to believe in a fiction (my words, not theirs), but I cannot believe in something I don't believe. I know that sounds obvious, but it's simply the truth. It's why we often ask, "why don't you believe in Zeus" as an illustrative example of why we don't believe in your "god". I would need something from religion to compel me to believe in it. There would have to be something there. I don't see it there.

Now, I do realize your question is what would compel a theist to change their mind, and I'm coming from the perspective of a never-believer, but for me it's as simple as a matter of reality...of what is real. I've studied religions a lot, and have discussed religion with a lot of people. And all I can imagine is, if I were in it myself personally, if I where a theist, I would still have my same brain and same reasoning, and I would be no more convince by religion than I've ever not been. Even if I were currently religious, I wouldn't be able to remain religious because there is nothing compelling there for me to buy into it.

I could state reasons that would compel a theist not to believe in religion, but the most compelling reason to me is that religion lacks a compelling reason to believe in it itself.


Actually, I will briefly add to that, the more I've studied religion, and the more I've been told reasons to believe in it, the more convinced I became that it was bullshit. To me, every religious argument is an argument not to believe in religion. They are such weak, flawed and narrow reasons to believe in religion that every argument I've ever heard for religion ultimately seems to be an argument against belief in it.

...
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09-03-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 11:16 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  When I was a lad, ...

Demonic, are you a Gilbert and Sullivan fan too?

Doc
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09-03-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 12:38 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 11:16 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  When I was a lad, ...

Demonic, are you a Gilbert and Sullivan fan too?

Doc


Did somebody say Gilbert & Sullivan?





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09-03-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
I think the OP was a drive-by.


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09-03-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 01:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 12:38 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Demonic, are you a Gilbert and Sullivan fan too?

Doc


Did somebody say Gilbert & Sullivan?





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