A question for atheists.
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09-03-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
A significant needle for me was the question: "Why doesn't God know that genocide is wrong?"
Why am I (a mere created being) more moral than the source of morality?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-03-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 05:00 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  A significant needle for me was the question: "Why doesn't God know that genocide is wrong?"
Why am I (a mere created being) more moral than the source of morality?

Because you - as a flawed and fallen human being whose status as such cannot but be preordained and inevitable, unless the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence are to lose all semantic meaning whatsoever and be reduced to meaningless squirts of mindless affirmation of in-group identity - are, in your consequent condemnable arrogance, usurping the right to form independent moral judgements, when by all rights you should be a quiet little Divine Command automaton taking your marching orders only from a moldy old rapacious fairy tale; the self-authenticating guidance of the holy spirit; the say-so of your betters, and never you mind.

Makes perfect sense.

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09-03-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(08-03-2014 10:28 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  While I know that most of you find it more appropriate to challenge the theists on why they believe that they believe, I'd like you to take the road less traveled...

What positive argument(s) or evidence(s) do you have which may convince a theist to change their minds?

Note: I'm not asking you for reasons that COMPEL the theist to change their minds, but rather for reasons that COULD change their minds.

I would truly appreciate your responses, and I hope to see some thought-provoking ones.

Thank you.

The bible is the hands down best book to support atheism. it invalidates itself, research as I have for years who wrote what, when and what they based those writings on, who put the whole parable together and why....research the story itself. Take a few classes, I take a religious course every 6 months at minimum to stay abreast of the rhetoric.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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09-03-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 01:59 AM)Charis Wrote:  I'm actually not sure what the frack I am... Christian? (so delicately penned as a x-tard) Agnostic? Dunno.... not sure I could really go by Christian at the moment though. I've started saying "Agnostic with Christian leanings" lately. My mom says I've just been severely hurt, which is certainly true.
So to answer the OP's question... what has brought me from full-blown, fundamentalist, obedient-deacon's-wife, pregnant-in-the-kitchen, YEC Christian to IdunnowthIam?

I was waaaaayyyy familiar with Comfort/Cameron/Friel/AIG apologetics and those who used it (used it myself sometimes, and corrected husband when I saw horrid logic... he didn't take too kindly to that). In short, they taught to consciously circumvent intellectual conversation and go for the emotions and conscience instead. Something about that seemed... wrong. Not only was it manipulative, it also went against their assertions that the evidence speaks for the Bible. After all, if it does, stop circumventing it... just let the evidence out and blow everyone away with it, right?

Well, there was also abuse. Gross psychological abuse. The "women have no rights" kind of abuse. The "if your husband is into porn, it's your fault for not being a Godly wife and it's better for him to rape you than to fall into porn" type of abuse. The "I know childbearing is dangerous for you, but I am not willing to risk sinning against God by not getting you pregnant again" kind of abuse. The "your suicide attempts are simply manifestations of your pride and rebellion and you need to get on your knees and repent" kind of abuse. The "Sarah called her husband Abraham 'Lord'" kind of abuse.

I left. I ran. I had to.
And I was punished.
But him? My husband? He was blessed. He was protected and provided for.

And you can't TELL ME that he's "really not blessed but is suffering deep down inside." Don't even.

Now during all of this, I'm needing to take a step back to see really what is what. And that's the point you find me at now.

RE
"In short, they taught to consciously circumvent intellectual conversation and go for the emotions and conscience instead. "

Wow! I didn't know that. Thanks.
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09-03-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 01:30 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 01:18 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Pffffffft. Just another troll. How productive is the ten billionth idiot wandering in here trying to shift the burden of proof. You wanna play pattycake with the troll, have fun. Hobo

So you're just havin' a wank at the keyboard. Seems to be all you do 'round here.

Project much?

Quote:Every person with an opinion that differs from yours is a troll, and we all suffer the consequences of your fetish.

That is not true. BUt go ahead, make up whatever the fuck you want if it makes you feel better. Meh.


Quote: I give no fucks about your angst, I like to engage in discussion. Discussion spreads knowledge, knowledge spreads confidence, confidence spreads people realizing that we need to be treating eachother with a modicum of mutually respectful empathy if we're ever gonna become better than we are.


You done with your lecture? Piss off.

Quote:You seem hell bent against that with the way you treat people, and I have a problem with that.

You know where the ignore button is.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-03-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 01:38 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Taq, you are actually a fucking idiot. You swooped in with your preprogrammed ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK button while completely misinterpreting the purpose of shimmy's question.

She's not here to shift burden of proof, she's interested in what WE think COULD possibly change a theist's mind or at least get them to consider a different perspective. You strawmanned this based on the unwarranted assumption that she was interested in a debate and that she's going to shoot back with some dismissal. She's not even asking us to CHANGE HER MIND. In fact she displayed interest in Mom's answer, another thing you completely ignored.

Switch off your belligerent tunnel vision mode and learn how to improve your reading comprehension.

[Image: no-whining.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-03-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
shimmyjimmy Wrote:
(09-03-2014 01:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Whether you strawman us based on your "personal experiences" or on something else doesn't change that you are strawmanning.

But I haven't even brought up your position, so I can't be possibly strawmanning you.


Incorrect.

Quote: Rather, I am generalizing your tactics based on personal experience.

Your "generalization" of these "tactics" as "ours" is strawmanning.


Quote:
(09-03-2014 01:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Don't tell me what to do. I am not "complaining". I am jacking up a troll.

If you say so.

I do.


Quote:
(09-03-2014 01:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You think so? You got all stupid about me calling you an Xtard. That was my first HUGE clue. That is, aside from your cliche'd and hackneyed xtard tactic of wading into an atheist forum trying to shift your burden of proof. Of course, you are trying to hide your beliefs as part of your failing strategy to shift the burden of proof. So if I'm strawmanning you, then quit being a chickenshit and declare your fairy tale beliefs.

I would find that term to be rude, regardless of my religious position.

Tough.

Quote:I do believe in a God. But I am not subscribed to any such religion.

Your "gawd" == fairy tale. Deal with it.

Quote:
(09-03-2014 01:04 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Have you or anyone else provided a shred of credible evidence to support whatever bullshit fairytale claims you make? THERE is my confidence.

So your disbelief in a God is due to you being unsatisfied by the 'evidence' (or lack thereof) claimed by theists?

It's not just that, no.But that by itself is enough. You make a claim of your mythical "god", and you fail to support it with evidence. Just like Hindus make claims of their gods, and Tibetan Lamaists make claims of their deities and other magical horseshit, Muslims make their claim of their god and prophets, etc, etc, etc. Do you believe in the Hindu's gods? The ancient Roman, Egyptian, and Greek gods? Wotan, Baal, etc? Yes or no?

Quote: Isn't that not a limited and unfair way of coming to such a philosophical position?

It is neither unfair nor limited. It is simply an acknowledgement that your fairy tale is no better than those of the Lamaists, the Hindus, the Egyptians, etc.


Quote: Surely you can come to your position by any other observational or analytical means? I am genuinely interested.

Did you miss the part in which I pointed out that your mythical deity is a fairy tale, just like the others?

But again, just as others have pointed out, we are born as atheists. People are taught superstitions and fairy tales. As if they were real. It's a tragedy for the human race.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-03-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 06:30 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 01:38 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Taq, you are actually a fucking idiot. You swooped in with your preprogrammed ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK button while completely misinterpreting the purpose of shimmy's question.

She's not here to shift burden of proof, she's interested in what WE think COULD possibly change a theist's mind or at least get them to consider a different perspective. You strawmanned this based on the unwarranted assumption that she was interested in a debate and that she's going to shoot back with some dismissal. She's not even asking us to CHANGE HER MIND. In fact she displayed interest in Mom's answer, another thing you completely ignored.

Switch off your belligerent tunnel vision mode and learn how to improve your reading comprehension.

[Image: no-whining.jpg]

Yah, because pointing out the flaws in what you interpreted in another person's intentions is totally whining.

Drinking Beverage

[Image: giphy.gif]
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09-03-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
For me, the majority of the West are Christian. The culture they were born in to. The middle east are Muslim or Jewish. India is Hindu or Muslim. Obviously I'm generalising. It is just a fact that everyone is equally devout based on Geography. With that comes some strange and strong social contortions. ... Fundamental American Christians believe in a 6000 year old earth and can't for the life of them see why the rest of the educated world finds this hilarious. Fundamental Jews believe they are chosen by the same God as favourable and superior yet don't understand how this is arrogant. Fundamental Muslims believe that genocidal attacks alot them virgins in an afterlife but can't understand why the rest of the world take offence when they state they are the religion of peace and Hinduism treats it's lowest cast, the Dalit worse than a stray animal yet can't see why it is easy to reject its philosophy.

All of these religions, it could be said, in a certain light have philosophical, theological and social arguments as to why they are 'the' truth but not one has actual tangible evidence, only anecdotal. ALL of them have anecdotal testimony.

If you are religious you possibly reject all but one of the religions I have mentioned, it's plausible you reject them for the same or similar reasons I and many other people do. Atheists like me are the same as you. We just reject 1 God more than you do. ... I haven't read the whole thread yet and hope this answer is helpful.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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09-03-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: A question for atheists.
(09-03-2014 06:56 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 06:30 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  [Image: no-whining.jpg]

Yah, because pointing out the flaws in what you interpreted in another person's intentions is totally whining.

Drinking Beverage

You have merely asserted ad hoc that my "interpretation' was flawed. You haven't shown that at all. And yes, you are whining.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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