A question for theists and atheists alike.
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23-05-2014, 01:05 AM
A question for theists and atheists alike.
Just for you Theists I have a theist theory for you all. Just cuz I likes ya and all. How feasible is this theory?

I am not sure if this has been brought up but, why the need for a perfect plan? Why the need for a perfect design?

Let us say that I or you if you want to feel pretentious enough. ARE GAWWDDD!!!! (god).

Now You are all powerful (you can do anything) and all knowing ( you know everything). So if you are all powerful you can see the future but since you are all knowing, you are all knowing about the future. to limit yourself from doing so means you are neither all powerful or all knowing which means even before you would ever even have the idea to create the universe you already knew you would create the universe and everything that would happen and the fact that you would create this thing called sin and sacrifice yourself to yourself to save everyone from YOU from a evil you yourself put there to begin with. As well as every "thought" and action and the exact movements of every single particle that would ever exist down to the subatomic particles and where they would go and what they would do.

Meaning every decision that man ever makes and their thoughts have already been predetermined so free will is impossible because you cannot possibly NOT know what someone is going to do so, even after your perfect design is finished, you already know everything that is going to happen and free will is a joke.

SO! Free will does not exist right? Well don't you think it would be not only extremely boring for a deity to know exactly what everything is already going to be like before its done and how it will end and so forth before they start? I will get to that in a bit.

So we have assessed that

1. God is NOT all powerful and cannot see the future.(even if its his choice to do so).
2. God is NOT all knowing
3. God has an information Cap that limits him which means he is neither all knowing OR all powerful (even though this God of yours is greatly powerful)

So, how to get around the problems of evolution vs creating and logic of a being so full of paradoxes? I purpose to you a new deity! ( I don't believe in this one but you may if you will)

Let's take a deity who is bored. So bored they know not what to do with themselves. They get the idea to create existence. So don't you think its feasible that they would want to be a little more entertained than to just make what they intended too and have it do exactly what they want? Cool! So they think for a bit...thinking...thinking...AH! I know! Well I know there is only so much information I can (or even could dream of attempting to handle at a single time) handle at any single point in time. So what if I create something that will just expand and form up on its own without my having to do anything at all? That might be able to go some fun places. Like a self repairing, self destroying,sustaining, expanding....maybe it could...I dunno. *things up math formula for light and energy* like that...and keep growing. hm...also since there is so much that could actually come from it. "who KNOWS what might pop up in this magical land!" So...badda bing badda boom! POW! Big Bang *really more of an expansion than a explosion really* happens.

The deity just thinks up random stuff to start the universe and all the other laws and whatnot just sort of make themselves as time goes on. Eventually leading to very interesting stuff like stars and planets and eventually WOW!!! He never saw that one coming...stuff that moves on its own but, different. It sort of like. I dunno, consumes things on these little balls with an atmosphere and they eject this waste from their lower ends. Eventually it does something really cool and awesome and its...OM+G...ITS.....THINKING!?!

they are everywhere too! On this ball and this ball over here and they are even stating to take stuff from around them that formed from all this I did way back when and make stuff of their own out of it. ...dude...totally sweet.

Best thing is, there are so many particles flying around everywhere and so many sub atomic particles to keep track of that ( even I the god who started this chain reaction of awesome) couldn't even keep up with even a small portion of it even if I tried! So there really is no possible way I could even DREAM of knowing what comes next.

But, To interfere in any way with any of the things living here would just mess them up bad so I will leave them alone. Little balls somehow seem to grasp some concept of a creator which is kinda neat I guess. I suppose since them and the universe are one in the same they can sense that sort of thing somehow. Just too sad they think they are immortal and all that other stuff. So many of these planets seem to get that idea while the other more rational ones don't.

peculiar.


So now we have a universal creator who simple allowed for the first initial expansion to happen, sat back and just let itself (the universe) make up its own laws and expand until stuff happens and marveled at it all. No afterlife or anything else.
Thinks we and all the others are interesting but does not give a flying feather about any of us and has never actually intervened in any real way. Probably created multiverse and there is probably more than one of HIM. All whom created other universe around here and there.

So, IF a deity exists. I imagine it more like that.


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23-05-2014, 03:16 AM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Just for you Theists I have a theist theory for you all. Just cuz I likes ya and all. How feasible is this theory?

I am not sure if this has been brought up but, why the need for a perfect plan? Why the need for a perfect design?

Let us say that I or you if you want to feel pretentious enough. ARE GAWWDDD!!!! (god).

Now You are all powerful (you can do anything) and all knowing ( you know everything). So if you are all powerful you can see the future but since you are all knowing, you are all knowing about the future. to limit yourself from doing so means you are neither all powerful or all knowing which means even before you would ever even have the idea to create the universe you already knew you would create the universe and everything that would happen and the fact that you would create this thing called sin and sacrifice yourself to yourself to save everyone from YOU from a evil you yourself put there to begin with. As well as every "thought" and action and the exact movements of every single particle that would ever exist down to the subatomic particles and where they would go and what they would do.

Meaning every decision that man ever makes and their thoughts have already been predetermined so free will is impossible because you cannot possibly NOT know what someone is going to do so, even after your perfect design is finished, you already know everything that is going to happen and free will is a joke.

SO! Free will does not exist right? Well don't you think it would be not only extremely boring for a deity to know exactly what everything is already going to be like before its done and how it will end and so forth before they start? I will get to that in a bit.

So we have assessed that

1. God is NOT all powerful and cannot see the future.(even if its his choice to do so).
2. God is NOT all knowing
3. God has an information Cap that limits him which means he is neither all knowing OR all powerful (even though this God of yours is greatly powerful)

So, how to get around the problems of evolution vs creating and logic of a being so full of paradoxes? I purpose to you a new deity! ( I don't believe in this one but you may if you will)

Let's take a deity who is bored. So bored they know not what to do with themselves. They get the idea to create existence. So don't you think its feasible that they would want to be a little more entertained than to just make what they intended too and have it do exactly what they want? Cool! So they think for a bit...thinking...thinking...AH! I know! Well I know there is only so much information I can (or even could dream of attempting to handle at a single time) handle at any single point in time. So what if I create something that will just expand and form up on its own without my having to do anything at all? That might be able to go some fun places. Like a self repairing, self destroying,sustaining, expanding....maybe it could...I dunno. *things up math formula for light and energy* like that...and keep growing. hm...also since there is so much that could actually come from it. "who KNOWS what might pop up in this magical land!" So...badda bing badda boom! POW! Big Bang *really more of an expansion than a explosion really* happens.

The deity just thinks up random stuff to start the universe and all the other laws and whatnot just sort of make themselves as time goes on. Eventually leading to very interesting stuff like stars and planets and eventually WOW!!! He never saw that one coming...stuff that moves on its own but, different. It sort of like. I dunno, consumes things on these little balls with an atmosphere and they eject this waste from their lower ends. Eventually it does something really cool and awesome and its...OM+G...ITS.....THINKING!?!

they are everywhere too! On this ball and this ball over here and they are even stating to take stuff from around them that formed from all this I did way back when and make stuff of their own out of it. ...dude...totally sweet.

Best thing is, there are so many particles flying around everywhere and so many sub atomic particles to keep track of that ( even I the god who started this chain reaction of awesome) couldn't even keep up with even a small portion of it even if I tried! So there really is no possible way I could even DREAM of knowing what comes next.

But, To interfere in any way with any of the things living here would just mess them up bad so I will leave them alone. Little balls somehow seem to grasp some concept of a creator which is kinda neat I guess. I suppose since them and the universe are one in the same they can sense that sort of thing somehow. Just too sad they think they are immortal and all that other stuff. So many of these planets seem to get that idea while the other more rational ones don't.

peculiar.


So now we have a universal creator who simple allowed for the first initial expansion to happen, sat back and just let itself (the universe) make up its own laws and expand until stuff happens and marveled at it all. No afterlife or anything else.
Thinks we and all the others are interesting but does not give a flying feather about any of us and has never actually intervened in any real way. Probably created multiverse and there is probably more than one of HIM. All whom created other universe around here and there.

So, IF a deity exists. I imagine it more like that.


Fuck. This is longer than one of my posts! No wonder I didn't get through it all.
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23-05-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
This is not a theory; please stop misusing that word.

This is a thought exercise. This is a hypothesis. This is speculation. This is mental gymnastics. This is a logical conundrum.

This is not a theory.

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23-05-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
I've not had enough coffee to digest this.

Drinking Beverage

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23-05-2014, 11:00 AM
Re: A question for theists and atheists alike.
I missed the question part..

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23-05-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  How feasible is this theory?

I'll get to that at the end.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I am not sure if this has been brought up but, why the need for a perfect plan? Why the need for a perfect design?

An infinitely omnipotent deity cannot make imperfection (certainly not by accident, so any imperfection he does make would be deliberate, ergo, planned). An infinitely omniscient deity cannot fail to know the right thing to do, the right way to create, the best way to achieve his desires, nor can he fail to know even the slightest flaw in his creations, and it's certain that he will know all possible future outcomes for everything he creates.

Therefore, whether he wants a plan or not, an omnipotent, omniscient creator will create perfectly, every time he creates, and all his creations will be flawless and will be created such that they will do, perfectly, what they're designed to do, and everything they do will be known by the creator before he creates them to do it - anything less would still be deliberate flaws he deliberately created.

All of that is, ultimately, the definition of a "plan".

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  ... SNIP ...
Meaning every decision that man ever makes and their thoughts have already been predetermined so free will is impossible because you cannot possibly NOT know what someone is going to do so, even after your perfect design is finished, you already know everything that is going to happen and free will is a joke.

Knowing what someone will do is not the same thing as forcing them to do it.

I know that if someone hands me a donut, I will eat it; I like donuts. But I also still have the freewill to say "Not today" and eschew the donut. I won't, but I do have the freewill to make that decision.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  SO! Free will does not exist right?

Sure it does. We all have the freewill to choose salvation, or to burn in hellfire for eternity. The fact that god knows what we will choose does not mean that he has prevented us from making our own choice.

It does make him the biggest dick ever for giving us this choice without giving us enough information to truly know we must make this choice, knowing all the while that billions will choose damnation purely because they lack the information they need to make a better choice.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Well don't you think it would be not only extremely boring for a deity to know exactly what everything is already going to be like before its done and how it will end and so forth before they start?

Maybe, but he can't really change that, so he's stuck with it. Infinite boredom is the price of infinite omniscience.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So we have assessed that

1. God is NOT all powerful and cannot see the future.(even if its his choice to do so).
2. God is NOT all knowing
3. God has an information Cap that limits him which means he is neither all knowing OR all powerful (even though this God of yours is greatly powerful)

I disagree. We have assessed no such thing. You have merely postulated it as a thought exercise.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So, how to get around the problems of evolution vs creating and logic of a being so full of paradoxes?

I remain unconvinced that you have established this as a paradox. All you've done is define god the same what that many religions define him.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I purpose to you a new deity! ( I don't believe in this one but you may if you will)

Of course I won't, but I'll follow your thought exercise.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Let's take a deity who is bored. So bored they know not what to do with themselves.

I counter-propose that this is already impossible (since you suggest that creation has not happened yet because the deity is bored BEFORE he gets the idea to create existence.

How could a god like this exist? He presumably exists in a void which is, by definition, NOTHING without creation. How can he be omniscient when there is NOTHING to know? How can he be omnipotent when he has done NOTHING for all of eternity before now (if he did anything, then at least SOME creation would have already happened).

The first paradox in this thought exercise is the one you've created: An omniscient deity with nothing to know and an omnipotent deity who has never done anything. How did he develop this omniscience when there is nothing to know? How did he develop this omnipotence without ever using it? How did these happen to just exist?

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  They get the idea to create existence.

"They"? Do you mean "He"? Or "She"? Or even "It"?

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So don't you think its feasible that they would want to be a little more entertained than to just make what they intended too and have it do exactly what they want?

Maybe.

I agree that I would, but then, I'm not omniscient nor omnipotent. Maybe for a good who is both, entertainment is irrelevant.

I submit that an omnipotent and omniscient god could not possibly entertain himself through creation because he would always know every future event of that creation and could not possibly NOT know it. If all is known, then nothing would surprise or entertain him.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Cool! So they think for a bit...thinking...thinking...AH! I know! Well I know there is only so much information I can (or even could dream of attempting to handle at a single time) handle at any single point in time.

Flawed premise.

OMNIscient means he knows EVERYTHING. There is no limit to how much information an omniscient deity can process at an single point in time.

Further, most apologists (maybe all of them) agree that god exists outside of time, so the concept of "at any single point in time" doesn't apply to god. He can INSTANTANEOUSLY know EVERYTHING at once because he's omniscient and outside of time.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So what if I create something that will just expand and form up on its own without my having to do anything at all? That might be able to go some fun places. Like a self repairing, self destroying,sustaining, expanding....maybe it could...I dunno. *things up math formula for light and energy* like that...and keep growing. hm...also since there is so much that could actually come from it. "who KNOWS what might pop up in this magical land!" So...badda bing badda boom! POW! Big Bang *really more of an expansion than a explosion really* happens.

I suspect that's what he would have done anyway, not because he pretended to ignore his omniscience and tried to surprise himself with entertainment, but because evidence seems to support that something like this really happened (with or without a creator).

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  WOW!!! He never saw that one coming...

Yes he did. He couldn't fail to see that one coming.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  and its...OM+G...ITS.....THINKING!?!

You mean "Oh my Me! It's thinking, exactly as I knew it would. Yawn."

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  t ...dude...totally sweet.

And "dude, I totally knew all this would happen."

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Best thing is, there are so many particles flying around everywhere and so many sub atomic particles to keep track of that ( even I the god who started this chain reaction of awesome) couldn't even keep up with even a small portion of it even if I tried!

Except I can. Omniscient and out of time. No problem for me.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So there really is no possible way I could even DREAM of knowing what comes next.

Except I can and did, even without dreaming.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  But, To interfere in any way with any of the things living here would just mess them up bad so I will leave them alone.

Wellllllllll, except for that taboo tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that great flood, and that tower of babel, and a host of other wicked torments I shall inflict upon them.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So now we have a universal creator who simple allowed for the first initial expansion to happen, sat back and just let itself (the universe) make up its own laws and expand until stuff happens and marveled at it all. No afterlife or anything else.
Thinks we and all the others are interesting but does not give a flying feather about any of us and has never actually intervened in any real way.

This is the best part of what you said. I imagine that such a creator would care less about pathetic mortal man than you or I care about pathetic mortal germs living in our sinus cavity.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Probably created multiverse and there is probably more than one of HIM. All whom created other universe around here and there.

There would have to be. God had to EVOLVE somewhere. And he's way more evolved than us, so he spent a lot more time evolving. I imagine that the evolutionary advantage of omniscience and omnipotence take a very long time to come about by natural or even artificial selection.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So, IF a deity exists. I imagine it more like that.

Deities don't exist.

If one did, then lots would (evolution). If lots of deities exist, they might even dick around with creating universes and planets and life, and even dick around with that life. If they're omniscient and omnipotent, they would still be bored and would still know everything no matter how much they dick around with it.

Fortunately, this is all a thought exercise.

(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  How feasible is this theory?
Not terribly feasible. Your premise of limited omniscience is paradoxical, as is your premise of a god existing when there is no place to exist and knowing everything when there is nothing to know and being all powerful without ever having used any of that power.

It's not your fault; you just built upon the flawed premises of most religions - they're all equally paradoxical for the same reasons.

Hopefully I've given you some points of divergence that you can apply to refine the exercise.

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23-05-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
(23-05-2014 01:05 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  So we have assessed that

1. God is NOT all powerful and cannot see the future.(even if its his choice to do so).
2. God is NOT all knowing
3. God has an information Cap that limits him which means he is neither all knowing OR all powerful (even though this God of yours is greatly powerful)
I was with you until this part and then I thought "Whoa, how did we jump to that?" Consider

You were describing the situation if God was all powerful and all knowing and how that leads to free will not being possible in that scenario. So maybe that's it. How did you arrive at therefore "God is not all powerful...", etc. ?

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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23-05-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
yeah, Sorry about all this. I lost my train of thought somewhere last night when I wrote this lol.

The question was suppose to be something like

Do you think its more possible that god created something that would just create itself rather than some perfect pre determined design.

I honestly do not remember really writing any of this. I musta blacked out when writing it lol.


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23-05-2014, 01:05 PM
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
Interesting.

My post above in which I clearly state "Deities don't exist" received a *Like* from Jeremy E. Walker.

Jeremy, does this mean you're coming around to atheism? If so, welcome to the dark side, how do you like your babies? Rare, medium, or well done?

Or does it just mean you didn't really read what I wrote?

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23-05-2014, 01:24 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2014 01:29 PM by kim.)
RE: A question for theists and atheists alike.
(23-05-2014 12:41 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  yeah, Sorry about all this. I lost my train of thought somewhere last night when I wrote this lol.
----
----
I honestly do not remember really writing any of this. I musta blacked out when writing it lol.

Whew ... good to know... I blacked out somewhere in the middle of the second sentence. Drinking Beverage

(23-05-2014 12:41 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  The question was suppose to be something like
Do you think its more possible that god created something that would just create itself rather than some perfect pre determined design.

More possible.
More than the possible than I think it already is not possible to be? Or...
[Image: wat_zps65674231.jpg]

I received no god for any of my birthday or christmas celebrations.
I seem to have missed the memo that day ... to what god do you refer?

Or did someone just drop acid and forget to share, hmmmm? Shy

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