A question to my religious friends
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-03-2011, 04:54 AM
RE: A question to my religious friends
I hesitate to post this because it might be feeding a troll, so I apologize if that's the case.

TrainWreck wrote:

Christians do not want the government deciding how to redistribute the money, because government gives it out with out making sure the recipients are acting responsibly with it. So the Christians would rather give the money to charity, and then let the charity verify the recipients' need and responsibilities.

Think you're ready for an open discussion about how brilliant atheists are - think you got your facts straight?
[/quote]

You should try looking up the definition of "government" and what it's roles and responsibilities are. To save you some trouble, in a democracy, the government represents the people who elect it, and the job it does is to pass laws and set budgets and administer public programs and regulate markets and institutions, etc., all which neccessitates that it collects money via taxes and fees and redistributes it, so whether Christians like it or not, this is what government does. If you want to live somewhere that government does not collect taxes or fees and redistributes the money, good luck to you. Even in fascist countries this is how it works.

I know some Libertarians think that there is no need for government at all, but I'd hate to try drinking the water or buying uncontaminated food or trying to find a safe road to drive on in a country like that. It simply wouldn't function for long before the death toll got out of hand. The people would very quickly form a government to look after the essential things that need to be done for the greater good. And that would involve redistribution of money through taxes and/or fees. Sorry, but that's just reality. Leaving it all up to inidividuals and charities is a completely unrealistic expectation. Who oversees them? How do you trust them to do what you want with the money? Have you never heard of charities that keep 90% of their donations and use them for salaries and office expenses and only distribute the remaining 10% to the causes they were collected for? They exist. Some of them are registered Churches. Without police and a justice system (which would have to be run by a government and paid for with taxes) to oversee the charities, they could just collect money and never give any of it out. There would be no law against it.

And how does a country function without a military? Who pays for the military? Would you rely on charitable donations to support the Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force? How much of your yearly income would you donate to defense spending? Do you think everyone else would voluntarily donate the same percentage? Again, government is required for a military, as are taxes and fees. Your expectations in the matter are wildly unrealistic.

Oh, and as for your line about how brilliant atheists are- anyone with a functioning brain will tell you not all atheists are brilliant, just as not all Christians are brilliant. In both groups you will find the entire spectrum of intelligence represented from stump-stupid to genius. The same can be said for Republicans and Democrats, or cat lovers and dog lovers, or males and females- you might detect a pattern here.

Belief or not in a God does not define one's intelligence, although I am in awe of the intelligent Christian's ability to ignore facts, evidence, and logical contradictions in order to be a Christian in the first place.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 09:07 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: A question to my religious friends
You misrepresented my comments to extend to the full spectrum of government functions, where as i was only trying to present the argument why conservative Christians are against increased federal spending on worthless welfare loafers.
(22-03-2011 02:51 AM)The_observer Wrote:  Who are you that you actually know the reason why money is kept? Think you got your facts straight?
I'm pretty smart, especially compared to all the others who just merely sucked-up to the opening poster's Christian bashing, when the answer to the question is obvious - as I answered it.

Yes - I have my facts straight.
(22-03-2011 12:14 AM)No J. Wrote:  If you look at how wealthy many churches have become it is easy to see that they keep most of the money. In some cases the churches are so filthy rich that it is impossible to even imagine them giving any money away.

They don't want the government redistributing it, they want to keep it for themselves.
So?
Do you really care about the poor people?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2011 11:40 AM by Observer.)
RE: A question to my religious friends
(22-03-2011 09:00 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(22-03-2011 02:51 AM)The_observer Wrote:  Who are you that you actually know the reason why money is kept? Think you got your facts straight?
I'm pretty smart, especially compared to all the others who just merely sucked-up to the opening poster's Christian bashing, when the answer to the question is obvious - as I answered it.

Yes - I have my facts straight.
You might have misunderstood the question.
I asked WHO you are. Not HOW SMART you are.
Answering a straight question in a rhetorical way does not really give an answer. It just shows you handle language very well.
No, I was more thinking among the lines of:
-I am minister in a church
-I studied this at school
-I've read a lot: here are my sources

you know... the "honest discussion stuff"

so about those facts...
care to share?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 11:46 AM
RE: A question to my religious friends
(22-03-2011 09:00 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  I'm pretty smart, especially compared to all the others who just merely sucked-up to the opening poster's Christian bashing, when the answer to the question is obvious - as I answered it.

Yes - I have my facts straight.

Since I'm that guy, guess I'll take the bait.

I wasn't "Christian bashing." I was opening a dialogue [since we've lost all pretense of cordiality, I'll explain the meaning of that word to you]. You say you're smart - heck, you may be the smartest human on this forum; however, you're not smart enough to understand that you're words and ideas are absolutely without meaning if no one cares enough to read or hear them. Your ego gets in the way of any potential your bright ideas may have because people are put off by you.

Let's go another route. In a dialogue (or conversation if that word works better for you) you exchange ideas in a civil manner. I had a serious question for religious friends - one of which took me up on it and tried to explain that higher taxes disincentivitized (my word) rich people from working. Not necessarily the answer I was looking for, but at least it was an answer. I think in my comments section I effectively refuted his claim - but again, it was done in a manner that is not belittling to the other person.

(22-03-2011 09:00 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  So?
Do you really care about the poor people?

Obviously you do not, but some of actually do. Whether it is altruism or just a sense of social justice, people care. This is my problem with the hard core conservative right - they just don't seem to care even while spewing their love for a guy that thought that was the most important thing in the world - I call that hypocrisy and I want to know how they square the knot on that philosophy.

This is my last response to you Mr. TrainWreck. When you learn civility and respect for your fellow members, maybe then we can engage in civil dialogue - good day Smile

"Like" my Facebook page
Brain Droppings Blog
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT16Rq3dAcHhqiAsPC5xUC...oR0pEpxQZw]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 08:21 PM
RE: A question to my religious friends
I work at a nonprofit organization that supports the homeless along with painting low income housing. I think I do my part for the poor. And as far as giving money to rich people that has nothing to do with just the poor poor. Poor in todays' world as suggested by Obama is apparently around $240,000 a year. So most likely pretty much everyone on this board is poor. Anyways it's a good question why they would promote people who so obviously fuck them over, but of course it's not like the other side doesn't secretly fuck them over.

It's quite obvious that giving money to rich people doesn't stimulate anything, and I think that most people are realizing that severely now that it's as bad as it is. Yet many still vote for the obvious bastards who smile about giving money to the rich.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 08:37 PM
RE: A question to my religious friends
Just as an aside: The US government is not a democracy. Just FYI.

Be polite.
Be efficient.
Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 10:14 PM
RE: A question to my religious friends
(22-03-2011 08:37 PM)ConditionYellow Wrote:  Just as an aside: The US government is not a democracy. Just FYI.

Who said it was? I would think everyone on here knows that we are considered a republic and more resemble a plutocracy. Generally those words are about the same, republic means the people elect officials to make decisions for them, and plutocracy means exorbitantly rich people control all power and gain everything from the rest of the citizens. Since we're a capitalist republic it stands to reason that the elected officials fall nearer the plurocrat than the bum.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 10:26 PM
RE: A question to my religious friends
(22-03-2011 04:54 AM)hotrodmike Wrote:  You should try looking up the definition of "government" and what it's roles and responsibilities are. To save you some trouble, in a democracy, the government represents the people who elect it...

Aside from getting the definition of government wrong, Mike implies that the US government is a democracy. I just wanted to set the record straight. As I believe a democracy is a horrible form of government. It is nothing more, as the adage goes, than two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Be polite.
Be efficient.
Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2011, 10:42 PM
RE: A question to my religious friends
Republic and democracy aren't mutually exclusive temrs. There are different types of democracy (i.e. Direct Democracy, Representative Democracy, Consensus Democracy, etc, etc.)

In theory the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered

If you ask me it's a mix of plutocracy with oligarchy

"Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." Mikhail Bakunin
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-03-2011, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2011 05:46 PM by TrainWreck.)
Oh yeah, you really think you care about helping the poor - prove it!
(22-03-2011 11:46 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  You say you're smart - heck, you may be the smartest human on this forum; however, you're not smart enough to understand that you're words and ideas are absolutely without meaning if no one cares enough to read or hear them.
I am very much aware of that phenomenon - it is exactly the reason why it is so absurd that atheists proclaim the mantra, ". . . we only have one thing in common." If atheists only have one thing in common and cannot organize into factions, much less consolidate a whole, you have no business telling the theists what is right and what is wrong.

(22-03-2011 11:46 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  . . . Whether it is altruism or just a sense of social justice, people care. This is my problem with the hard core conservative right - they just don't seem to care even while spewing their love for a guy that thought that was the most important thing in the world - I call that hypocrisy and I want to know how they square the knot on that philosophy.
I am homeless. I was lucky, when I panhandled and saved enough to buy a $250.00 Acer AspireOne in December 2009, to replace the broken $200.00 Dell Inspiron I bought in February 2008. Here are the pictures.[Image: Tiger%20Woods%203.PNG][Image: Gov%20Spitzer%2002.02.08.jpg] Sorry, this site doesn't enlarge, so the signs can be read.

My story begins in 2001, when I realized that I was carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders, and I decided to figure out why, as many other people noticed, "things are messed up." In 2004, I realized how the political system is fractured and needs to be amended - I am absolutely positive that you, and every other person here believe the system is fractured. The difference between me and all of you is that I know what is wrong and have solution(s) - all of you have is nothing but complaints about everyone else being messed up. If you had solutions you would be constructing a political agenda, because that is what politics is all about fixing society. Your argument that atheism is not political, and that you just want theists to smarten-up, is absurd, because that is a political agenda - you are guilty of unwittingly perpetuating the politicians' (of yesteryear, and contemporary) exploitation of the category error that separates religion and politics. You would do yourselves a tremendous favor if you recognized religions as political parties, so then they could be debated in legislatures, as it is you allow religions the excuse from political scrutiny. All your moaning and groaning about religion accomplishes nothing, and has put you in the position of having miscalculated your role in education - If atheists had full autonomous control of a political district, I guarantee atheists would teach Creationism in science classes, because it has to be taught in order to recognize it as erroneous.

Category error is another phenomenon, and it permeates throughout our communications, politicians, and common folks alike, exploit the characteristics of category error to promote their agendas. People are able to do this because there is no standardization of classification; and so, because of this lack of standardization, as you may have noticed, even the most civil of discussion doesn't get anywhere, anyway. I have devised what will be the standardization of classification, and eventually it will become apart of society, and it will bring about a recognizable approach to orderliness. When this occurs, people will be much more accepting of "fixing" the political system, because they will understand the mistakes in the previous thinking that is associated with category error and how it effects the game theory of the political system. And more than likely, what is going to happen is the Christians are going to give the atheists a political district, and you will then come to realize how ill prepared you are, and how petty your arguments about church and state have been.

Now, where am I today: My problem right now is that I need to recover my identification, which I lost several years ago, so I can begin the marketing of my classification system - I need an address to begin the process of recover my identification. I am very confident that the Christians will be willing to help me with this process, and they will not hassle me about being an atheist, and I will be obliged to credit them for their help - do you think it is possible that atheists, like you, might be able to help?

My classification system is sure to garner me a fortune, every library, and eLibrary, will have to pay a fee; and thus far, the best you may see of that is a $10.00 donation (consolation prize) to TheThinkingAtheist - otherwise, I see no reason why I would be obligated to contribute any further to any atheist organization - they do not represent the way I think, or how I wish to guide society.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: