A respectful debate
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09-11-2013, 09:10 AM
A respectful debate
I recently had a respectful debate with an old high school buddy who is a theist. After some thought about what he had to say and his stance I came up with the following:

Religion itself is based on a false dichotomy presenting the notion that you must either choose to accept a deity or reject said deity, but belief is not a choice. Belief is a compulsion beyond the realm of choice achieved through convincing arguments, evidence and trust. I do not choose to belief in what I do because I perceive it to be the more attractive option, I'm compelled to believe what is true whether I like it or not because desirability is not a requisite of the truth. Truth does not require approval especially when accompanied with the evidence. To truly make a choice to accept or reject one has to be given the option. If I can doubt whether the option even exist, then the option has not been clearly presented thereby prevented a choice to be made. An omniscient deity would easily see this flaw in this system. But this deity isn't omniscient he only seems that way. For some reason some way he knows exactly how to answer your doubt and always knows what you're thinking. A deity doesn't exist in the externally as most do think, but instead eternally. So many people of the same faith have the belief in a deity but differ many times on what his overall message. This is because everyone in a way is their own deity internally. If a deity in the external sense existed the message would not be so cloudy and the different ideas of what said deity is or what it wants would not exist. Everyone would have the same thought of the message because it is clearly seen and presented with substantial amount of proof.

I posted this on fb and I'm sure everyone is just going to love me lol(did I mention everyone I know is from Mississippi)
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09-11-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: A respectful debate
(09-11-2013 09:10 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  I recently had a respectful debate with an old high school buddy who is a theist. After some thought about what he had to say and his stance I came up with the following:

Religion itself is based on a false dichotomy presenting the notion that you must either choose to accept a deity or reject said deity, but belief is not a choice. Belief is a compulsion beyond the realm of choice achieved through convincing arguments, evidence and trust. I do not choose to belief in what I do because I perceive it to be the more attractive option, I'm compelled to believe what is true whether I like it or not because desirability is not a requisite of the truth. Truth does not require approval especially when accompanied with the evidence. To truly make a choice to accept or reject one has to be given the option. If I can doubt whether the option even exist, then the option has not been clearly presented thereby prevented a choice to be made. An omniscient deity would easily see this flaw in this system. But this deity isn't omniscient he only seems that way. For some reason some way he knows exactly how to answer your doubt and always knows what you're thinking. A deity doesn't exist in the externally as most do think, but instead eternally. So many people of the same faith have the belief in a deity but differ many times on what his overall message. This is because everyone in a way is their own deity internally. If a deity in the external sense existed the message would not be so cloudy and the different ideas of what said deity is or what it wants would not exist. Everyone would have the same thought of the message because it is clearly seen and presented with substantial amount of proof.

I posted this on fb and I'm sure everyone is just going to love me lol(did I mention everyone I know is from Mississippi)

I like your statement; I really do. And I agree with it.
Here's a little "side argument" you might wish to engage in with your theist friend.

"When comes faith?" In other words, is faith given to one, or does one have to seek it? And...if found or given, does one have the choice to accept or reject faith?
If faith is given, it must come to one thru parents/elders, community, culture, or media/experience. There isn't any other way to obtain it. Certainly, no one is born with it. Therefore, in this case, faith is based on whatever humans have concocted over many thousands of years and impart to their young.
Many arguements have been presented that propose that most people's faith comes from the geographical area in which they've been born and raised.
If faith must be sought, then the issue becomes much more cloudy, for in seeking it, one must ask many questions and investigate many avenues. And this process is the antithesis of faith. But for the sake of this little diatribe, let us assume that one "finds" faith....
Now...one has the choice of either accepting or rejecting it. Ask your theist friend what happens to the valiant searcher if they die two seconds after rejecting this faith they've sought after and found.
I'd be interested in the response!

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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09-11-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: A respectful debate
Interesting; faith is all in the mind where it can be accepted or rejected. I especially like this: Truth does not require approval especially when accompanied with the evidence. To truly make a choice to accept or reject one has to be given the option.

Good to have you here MrK.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-11-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: A respectful debate
(09-11-2013 09:10 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  I recently had a respectful debate with an old high school buddy who is a theist. After some thought about what he had to say and his stance I came up with the following:

Religion itself is based on a false dichotomy presenting the notion that you must either choose to accept a deity or reject said deity, but belief is not a choice. Belief is a compulsion beyond the realm of choice achieved through convincing arguments, evidence and trust. I do not choose to belief in what I do because I perceive it to be the more attractive option, I'm compelled to believe what is true whether I like it or not because desirability is not a requisite of the truth. Truth does not require approval especially when accompanied with the evidence. To truly make a choice to accept or reject one has to be given the option. If I can doubt whether the option even exist, then the option has not been clearly presented thereby prevented a choice to be made. An omniscient deity would easily see this flaw in this system. But this deity isn't omniscient he only seems that way. For some reason some way he knows exactly how to answer your doubt and always knows what you're thinking. A deity doesn't exist in the externally as most do think, but instead eternally. So many people of the same faith have the belief in a deity but differ many times on what his overall message. This is because everyone in a way is their own deity internally. If a deity in the external sense existed the message would not be so cloudy and the different ideas of what said deity is or what it wants would not exist. Everyone would have the same thought of the message because it is clearly seen and presented with substantial amount of proof.

I posted this on fb and I'm sure everyone is just going to love me lol(did I mention everyone I know is from Mississippi)


It seems like you atheists debate everyone you meet!

Lol.
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09-11-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: A respectful debate
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3...houli.html
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sch/beliefs/bel...llabus.htm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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09-11-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: A respectful debate
(09-11-2013 09:32 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  It seems like you atheists debate everyone you meet!

Lol.

Not all atheists like to debate.

Coming to an atheist forum, you will get a particular subgroup of atheists that like to debate. Our particular enjoyment of debate does not in any way reflect atheists on the whole in this respect.

I have 3 close friends that are atheists. None of them are into debate.
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09-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: A respectful debate
(09-11-2013 09:32 AM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(09-11-2013 09:10 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  I recently had a respectful debate with an old high school buddy who is a theist. After some thought about what he had to say and his stance I came up with the following:

Religion itself is based on a false dichotomy presenting the notion that you must either choose to accept a deity or reject said deity, but belief is not a choice. Belief is a compulsion beyond the realm of choice achieved through convincing arguments, evidence and trust. I do not choose to belief in what I do because I perceive it to be the more attractive option, I'm compelled to believe what is true whether I like it or not because desirability is not a requisite of the truth. Truth does not require approval especially when accompanied with the evidence. To truly make a choice to accept or reject one has to be given the option. If I can doubt whether the option even exist, then the option has not been clearly presented thereby prevented a choice to be made. An omniscient deity would easily see this flaw in this system. But this deity isn't omniscient he only seems that way. For some reason some way he knows exactly how to answer your doubt and always knows what you're thinking. A deity doesn't exist in the externally as most do think, but instead eternally. So many people of the same faith have the belief in a deity but differ many times on what his overall message. This is because everyone in a way is their own deity internally. If a deity in the external sense existed the message would not be so cloudy and the different ideas of what said deity is or what it wants would not exist. Everyone would have the same thought of the message because it is clearly seen and presented with substantial amount of proof.

I posted this on fb and I'm sure everyone is just going to love me lol(did I mention everyone I know is from Mississippi)


It seems like you atheists debate everyone you meet!

Lol.

Not all atheist like to debate. I don't debate because I'm atheist and I don't debate everyone. I don't go out lurking looking for someone to prove my point I simply display how I feel and if the opportunity arises I like to compare and contrast thought. So before you generalize atheist as people who just like to debate take a second and think before you make a statement such as that.
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09-11-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: A respectful debate
(09-11-2013 09:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3...houli.html
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sch/beliefs/bel...llabus.htm

Very good reads. Especially the first one.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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09-11-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: A respectful debate
I don't tend to debate either. Most debates bore me. Occasionally they can be epic though.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-11-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: A respectful debate
I tend to shy away from debates. They degrade too quickly into circular arguments and rarely reach a resolution.

Now if there is a discussion where thoughts are expressed -- that's a bit different to me. If a 'believer' says something to me that I feel is wrong, like a blanket assertion that all atheists are....

Then yes, I will try to correct their view.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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