A retrospective from my perspective
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27-03-2014, 03:58 AM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
(26-03-2014 07:00 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  I don't deny that people do stupid shit in the name of their religion, but the one where some would deny certain medical treatments would classify as a cult according to my book. You won't see a catholic doing the same. Yet there are tons of branches and churches that identify as christian but are often times mutually exclusive. That lowers their credibility and relevance, but letting a child suffer or die b/c some imaginary friend told them so is a lame excuse for being an awful human being. They could easily fall for any other woo shit that "forbids" them to so something, just so they don't have to take care of their kids properly and fulfill their own selfish desires.

Re "You won't see a catholic doing the same."

I disagree. Every time a catholic priest says
"let's pray for x" he's actually saying
"let's not do anything for x..let's ignore a rational solution...but bolster my woo story instead, and, um, btw, let's pass round the collection plate now that we've been so good mentioning x.
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27-03-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
(26-03-2014 07:00 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  I don't deny that people do stupid shit in the name of their religion, but the one where some would deny certain medical treatments would classify as a cult according to my book. You won't see a catholic doing the same. Yet there are tons of branches and churches that identify as christian but are often times mutually exclusive. That lowers their credibility and relevance, but letting a child suffer or die b/c some imaginary friend told them so is a lame excuse for being an awful human being. They could easily fall for any other woo shit that "forbids" them to so something, just so they don't have to take care of their kids properly and fulfill their own selfish desires.
No, Catholicism certainly doesn't get off the hook. For example, Lourdes, Fatima, and other places of "miracles". The Catholic church has given its stamp of approval that these are real. So it's teaching that people can be cured, not by medicine, but by miracles and faith at these places. How many Catholics have made pilgrimages to such places because of this seeking a miracle when they should have been using their time seeking professional medical advice?

Or how about the Catholic church's stance against homosexuality? Homosexuals on the whole are as innocent as any other group of people on the whole. They simply want to live their lives like anyone else. They have done nothing wrong unless you consider "love" to be "wrong" in which case condemn the heterosexuals for that too then. The Catholic church singles out this group of people for no good reason simply because they believe their god condemns homosexuality. Not only do they speak out against homosexuality, but the church even does all it can to persuade politicians to do the same (thus additionally disrespecting the entire country and its separation of church and state too). How many people hate homosexuals just because of the church's stance? (Hint: A LOT.)

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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05-04-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
I haven't denied that organized religions have their flaws at any time. They are indeed very flawed and their actions are oftentimes very questionable. However, these dynamics can be found in almost any organized group, political, corporate or whatnot. The symptoms are often the same: It all boils down to power and money and/or ego for those in highest position. Not more, not less. Some want even more than they can ever have, they surely should stick out their noses of science.

As for the average believing Joe, they don't even get into these circles, nor do they benefit from it. All they have is some imaginary friend that was created for them. Not everyone is gifted with a vivid imagination, so they hold on to a pre-made concept. Apart from all, they still have to deal with everyday life, just like everyone else. They need to make a living, they protect their loved ones and property, they have insurances, they pay for mortgages, cars, netflix and whatever else their finances allow. Anything else, such as their values, their feelings, their views, they choose to agree with statements that confirm their own. So when some nutjob on TV says shit against gays, they are happy to see they are not alone with their "opinion". Confirmation bias, anyone?

Again, as lots of gay people are religious, they seem to have their own good and carefully cherry-picked reasons, just like their enemies do. There are so many churches and cults within christianity, many of them contradict each other. Yet, they stand for what the people in it make of it. Some are harmless, some are not. The biggest danger is that people are using this as a perfect excuse to justify their own flaws, disguise their hatred and get away with it. They know too well, that the "religion card" flies most of the time. It's not religion that made them that way, they made religion their way.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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05-04-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
(05-04-2014 02:44 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  I haven't denied that organized religions have their flaws at any time. They are indeed very flawed and their actions are oftentimes very questionable. However, these dynamics can be found in almost any organized group, political, corporate or whatnot. The symptoms are often the same: It all boils down to power and money and/or ego for those in highest position. Not more, not less. Some want even more than they can ever have, they surely should stick out their noses of science.

As for the average believing Joe, they don't even get into these circles, nor do they benefit from it. All they have is some imaginary friend that was created for them. Not everyone is gifted with a vivid imagination, so they hold on to a pre-made concept. Apart from all, they still have to deal with everyday life, just like everyone else. They need to make a living, they protect their loved ones and property, they have insurances, they pay for mortgages, cars, netflix and whatever else their finances allow. Anything else, such as their values, their feelings, their views, they choose to agree with statements that confirm their own. So when some nutjob on TV says shit against gays, they are happy to see they are not alone with their "opinion". Confirmation bias, anyone?

Again, as lots of gay people are religious, they seem to have their own good and carefully cherry-picked reasons, just like their enemies do. There are so many churches and cults within christianity, many of them contradict each other. Yet, they stand for what the people in it make of it. Some are harmless, some are not. The biggest danger is that people are using this as a perfect excuse to justify their own flaws, disguise their hatred and get away with it. They know too well, that the "religion card" flies most of the time. It's not religion that made them that way, they made religion their way.

To an extant I agree with you on this, but (there is always a but isn't there) a lot of the behavior is taught.

Homophobia being the one I am intimately familiar with, you are assumed to be strait and are treated accordingly, if it comes to light that you are not you get treated differently. Why? Because they are taught that being a gay or a lesbian is wrong, by their parents and their church, who in turn taught the parents and so on.

26 years ago it was illegal to be a homosexual in SA. This law was based entirely on religion.

To this day crimes committed against gay men and woman are treated as less important than if they happened to a heterosexual. Why? because religion teaches that it is a sin, so of course they had it coming.

Yes some use religion as their enabler, knowing full well that they can get away with it. But these same people will raise a child, love them and care for them, but the minute that child says I am gay they are evicted on to the street.

Did the parents not love the child? They did, but their religion blinded them to the fact that their child was still the same person, their child was now a demon not welcome anymore.

Why are there religious gay people? For the same reason there are religious heterosexuals. A sense of community and belonging, often two things denied to them.

P.S.

Please don't take this post as an attack, its just a topic I'm quite passionate about and I tend to get a little worked up over it.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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05-04-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
Coming out is a hard one, it's a difficult and stony process. The reason why most assume people to be straight, is simply b/c it's the majority. Therefore, being different than others does make you stand out from the crowd. Now, the thing is, is being different a bad thing? Of course not, at least for the most part.

In practice, many ordinary people are afraid of unknown, new and different things. Oftentimes, it's either the fear of uncertainty, or to be "forced" to admit that they were wrong. Self-criticism is not a very common trait among humans, some see "being wrong" as a weakness or failure. There are different ways to compensate: We all seen this before, people often try to maintain a facade to hide their own weaknesses, they lie, they distort and they distract. Add religion to the mix, and you have a all-in-one solution to do just that.

Applying this to the example of homophobic parents, we have the following scenario: parents hear their son/daughter is gay. They react badly, b/c their discomfort with anything that differs from their own worldview (technology, science, human diversity... the list goes on), anything is seen as a threat to them personally, if it pushes them to either challenge or reconsider their own values. Religions jumps in as a perfect excuse/tool to re-inforce and maintain them at all costs, even if they'd have to outcast their own children. The question if people love their children or not depends on how they define this love. Unfortunately, many parents raise children in order to create clones in their own image and/or project their own desires on them, out of pure selfishness. Religions is a perfect tool to excuse and justify it and get away with it.

Thankfully there are good parents, who despite of their views or beliefs, accept their children as individuals, encourage them to live their lives the best way they can, and support them in whatever path they take.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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07-04-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: A retrospective from my perspective
Pxlgirl, I think we generally agree, but I probably blame religion to a greater degree than you do. You seem to be saying that, while external organizations - religious or otherwise - have an influence, it is the people themselves that are ultimately to blame. People are what they are first, but then use the positions of the external organizations as an excuse to validate and continue with their wrong behaviors. There is some truth in this, but I believe it only fits some situations.

Indoctrination can be a very powerful thing. I believe many people who consider homosexuality to be immoral never would have done so were it not for religious teaching. At a very early age, they are taught homosexuality is a sin, God says so, and you always obey God or else you go to hell. Then, as with so many religious teachings, it simply isn't questioned after that. Why question "God" if it means possibly going to hell? Fear, indoctrination, habit, and acceptance by family and friends keeps their minds shut after being wrongly taught. It is highly likely that had those same people simply been born into a secular family, at least some of them (if not most) would have questioned the supposed "immorality" of homosexuality at some point and arrived at a different conclusion.

And that's just a mild example. How about countries like Saudi Arabia and Iraq where people have to literally fear for their lives if they even question their indoctrination in the slightest? These are not people leaning on their religion as an excuse for their bad behaviors. It's religion forcing the bad behaviors upon them under threat of their lives.

So there are cases in which you are right, but there are also cases in which religion itself IS the problem.

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