A sentient god? I don't think so.
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22-11-2012, 05:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2012 08:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
(22-11-2012 10:47 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Hypothesis (from WLC): God is an immaterial, timeless, eternal and sentient being.

P - Premise | C - Conclusion
P1: God (hypothesis) is sentient.
P2: Sentience requires a brain.
P3: Brains are material.
C1: Therefore god has no brain.
C2: Therefore god (hypothesis) is not sentient.

Q.E.D.? Consider

Special pleading in 3... 2... 1...

I prefer to approach from another direction.
WLC gets to say anything he likes, (and does), however, "sentience" is "processing of information. It's "movement" (in time). T1 -> T2.
He's using an *action* verb, in, what he's already defined as a "timeless" environment. Can't have it both ways.
So, as I said he can, (and does), say anything he wants, but using an action verb in a timeless environment is linguistically meaningless.
It is Special Pleading. The statement that a sentient being exists in a timeless environment, lacks any meaningful content.
(Also in this universe, which is all we actually know about at this point, time does not exists apart from space. It's space-time.
WLC knows this, but he frequently lies, as he hopes his audience thinks he won't object to his crap).
Sentience also requires "memory", to refer the "input" against. It's 100 % intimately and utterly dependent on a temporal environment.
So he can say anything he wants. But saying that, about a god, has no meaning.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-11-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
P - Premise | C - Conclusion
P1 = God doesn't exist.
C1 = God doesn't exist.

See how easy it is!?

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22-11-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
Hey, Vosur.

You assume that the only way in the entire universe to achieve sentience is to have a brain. If we create sentient computers, it not only shatters that assumption, but it will leave us with an inescapable truth: we won't know how many different ways sentience can be achieved. We'll know the answer is more than one. Assuming that it's two is silly at that point.

It's like the search for extra terrestrial life. If we find it in Alpha Centauri, we know it can be found elsewhere. If we find it on Mars or Europa, that means it happened twice in this solar system alone, meaning it's likely far more ubiquitous than we can imagine.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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22-11-2012, 11:59 PM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
(22-11-2012 10:36 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

You assume that the only way in the entire universe to achieve sentience is to have a brain. If we create sentient computers, it not only shatters that assumption, but it will leave us with an inescapable truth: we won't know how many different ways sentience can be achieved. We'll know the answer is more than one. Assuming that it's two is silly at that point.

It's like the search for extra terrestrial life. If we find it in Alpha Centauri, we know it can be found elsewhere. If we find it on Mars or Europa, that means it happened twice in this solar system alone, meaning it's likely far more ubiquitous than we can imagine.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

That's called an argument from ignorance.

Until those forms are discovered and proven we can only work from established proven knowledge.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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23-11-2012, 06:01 AM
AW: RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
(22-11-2012 10:36 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

You assume that the only way in the entire universe to achieve sentience is to have a brain. If we create sentient computers, it not only shatters that assumption, but it will leave us with an inescapable truth: we won't know how many different ways sentience can be achieved. We'll know the answer is more than one. Assuming that it's two is silly at that point.

It's like the search for extra terrestrial life. If we find it in Alpha Centauri, we know it can be found elsewhere. If we find it on Mars or Europa, that means it happened twice in this solar system alone, meaning it's likely far more ubiquitous than we can imagine.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Hence why I said that you can replace "brain" with "complex neural system". Everything we know about sentience proves this. Damaging the neural system of a sentient being damages or destroys the sentience of that being.

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23-11-2012, 07:16 AM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
Um. It's not evident to me that sentience - intelligence - requires a brain. Anyway your definition of brain and sentience seem to me both to be fluid. What do you mean by sentience?

You could say that this is an argument from ignorance, but I think you're making an unsupported generalization, from 'the only sentient things I/we/the species have encountered all have brains, and damaging those brains leads to Creationism' to 'therefore all sentient things require a brain'...

Thoughts?
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23-11-2012, 07:20 AM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
(23-11-2012 07:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Thoughts?

I think Vosur is a poopyhead. Tongue

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23-11-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
Sentience is software. It must have hardware to run on.

No hardware, no sentience.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2012, 07:22 AM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
There is a song about momma kissing santa.

Songs are written by people.

People are witnesses.

Therefore santa exists.
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23-11-2012, 07:46 AM
RE: A sentient god? I don't think so.
(23-11-2012 07:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  Sentience is software. It must have hardware to run on.

No hardware, no sentience.
When talking about God people usually assert that 'He's not part of this universe' - if you have that degree of freedom, to talk of software *requiring* hardware seems a bit... restricted. *In our experience* software requires hardware...

NB I'm not bein' all wishy-washy, Vosur asked us to test-drive his argument so I'm trying to crash it into a tree...
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