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A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
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17-02-2014, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2014 12:58 PM by Youkay.)
A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Regarding the political situation about Israel and Palestine, the American and Israelite propaganda have caused a lot of misconceptions, prejudice and heavy biases.

Instead of accurately laying out all the details about the current state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine and a possible peaceful solution (which would require a huge body of text), I would much rather like to refer you guys to the paper of Dr. Kelman, who is a Professor of Social Ethics at Harward University. You can find his biography here. In his paper, he discusses the current situation and lays down the problems that hamper the peace process. Also he suggests a one-country/two-state solution. You can find his paper here (Kelman HC. A one-country / two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Middle East Policy Journal. 2011;18(1):27-41.).


- Even though PM Netanjahu has finally accepted the necessity for a two-state solution, his own ideological reluctance and his dependence on the right-wing and religious parties prevent him from moving in that direction.

- President Abbas on the other hand is quite more eager to negotiate a two-state solution, but suffers from political limitations.

- cessation of all Israeli settlement activities, which are a major requirement for peace negotiations have not been met. The growth of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the confiscation of land and the construction of security barriers have actively and intentionally diminished the chances for a two state solution.

- A one state solution is rejected by Israel, whereas Palestinians don't see an alternative.

- What Dr. Kelman is proposing is "is that the pragmatic terms of a negotiated agreement be complemented and framed by a joint vision of a principled peace, based on a historic compromise that meets the fundamental needs of both peoples, validates their national identities, and allows them to declare an end to the conflict consistent with the requirements of fairness and attainable justice. If such a framework is constructed through a joint Israeli-Palestinian process, it can reassure the two publics that the agreement is not jeopardizing their national existence and promises mutual benefits that far outweigh the risks it entails. This framework, as I see it, would take the form of a joint statement of principles, containing four main components:"

1) Mutual recognition of national identities and attachment to the land and commitment to a historic compromise

2) Spelling out the logic of a historic compromise

3) Highlighting the meaning of a historic compromise

4) offering a positive vision of a common future

(you can find the rest of it in the paper)


I hope those who are interested in genuinely talking about the politics that surround the Israel-Palestine conflict would use this paper as a paper or bring forth other noteworthy papers or articles that we can use as a basis of discussion.

(Please refrain from racist comments. Moderators, please remove racist comments from this thread)

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 02:49 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Wow, guys. I know this is an important topic and people are heatedly debating over this. But please, don't be so overly enthusiastic.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 04:10 AM
Re: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
You're newer here, and not aware almost anyone with any interest in the topic has discussed it too many ways through the last year.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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19-02-2014, 05:12 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Judging from what I see on this forum, people in general have problems with providing credible sources and founding a discussion on the basis of provided sources. Instead they prefer to contribute little to nothing by making meaningless posts.

I wanted this thread to be less small-talk and a more sophisticated discussion based on credible sources, which is lacking on TTA in general.

So please, respect my intention in making this thread and refrain from small-talk.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
I have trouble understanding how a two-state/two-country solution can work at this stage. On the surface it sounds acceptable, but Palestine is so broken up now and diminished that it doesn't seem viable without substantial reexpansion. I'm not convinced that the collective space occupied by Israel and Palestine is sufficient to nurture two independent nations. That said, politically an Israel-only solution or Palestine-only solution is not immediately possible. If it came down to one or the other of those my vote would be for Israel's political and legal institutions to form the basis of any one-state solution given their apparent relative maturity.

Seeking a middle ground makes some kind of sense to me. If it could soften the road to a combined nation I would be happy to see it happen, though I have no skin in this game. To me the end goal some 50 to 100 years from now may need to be a single cohesive state where the descendants of current Palestinians (including refugees) and Israelis have their vote. I don't know how to get there though. If a two-state, one country solution is a stepping stone then that would be fine with me. To some extent it would have echoes of New Zealand's treaty with the Maori people and the two-state one country solution that is present there... though some on this board might say that particular two-state solution has gone on for too long.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-02-2014, 08:15 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Hafnof Wrote:I have trouble understanding how a two-state/two-country solution can work at this stage.

Why? What leads you to this doubt? I have posted a whole article, so you can base your arguments on it. Or if you prefer, base your arguments on another credible source. Just don't leave an empty comment like this.

Hafnof Wrote:I'm not convinced that the collective space occupied by Israel and Palestine is sufficient to nurture two independent nations.

Again, why? What leads you to this doubt? Is your statement substantiated by any sources, or is it again an empty phrase?

Hafnof Wrote:If a two-state, one country solution is a stepping stone then that would be fine with me.

I am seriously doubting that you even had a look at the paper and are just making up stuff from the top of your head.

Hafnof Wrote:though some on this board might say that particular two-state solution has gone on for too long.

There has never been a two-state solution. What are you talking about? Haven't you even read my initial post?

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20-02-2014, 12:05 AM
Star RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Thoughts.

-state no longer segregated by race or religion, or claims to be for one race or religion

-proportional parliamentary representation

-allow deported/refugees to return to their original homes
--if homes are occupied or destroyed, state pays for new ones

-no one is allowed to be evicted or run off from their homes

-full voting rights to all adult residents. no second class citizenship.
--areas occupied or governed over by foreign bodies have full voting rights within those foreign bodies

-allow referendums to determine a countries final political (secular, non racist) borders
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20-02-2014, 12:31 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
How's about everyone get the fuck over themselves and act like adult human beings? That's my solution, it's about the only solution that's viable in any sense. Stupid asses are gonna be stupid asses irregardless, so I can't offer any real world solutions.

Sorry for the small talk, but that's all I have to say. Dodgy

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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20-02-2014, 02:26 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 02:54 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
I'm quite shocked at how little thought people are able to invest into a subject of discussion before making a post.

PoolBoyG Wrote:state no longer segregated by race or religion, or claims to be for one race or religion

I suppose you are in favor of a one state solution.

Dr. Kelman:
"Attractive though a one-state solution may be (and I write as someone who favored a binational state in the 1940s, before the establishment of Israel), pursuit of that option at this historical juncture is a formula for continuing and escalating the conflict, with predictably destructive consequences for both sides."

70 % of Israeli and 63 % of Palestinian respondents accepted the concept of Israel as the state of the Jewish people and Palestine as the state of the Palestinian people.
Joint Palestinian-Israeli Public Opinion Poll, press release, issued January 18, 2005, Ramallah, Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research; Jerusalem, Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, Hebrew University.

Israel defines itself and is defined by other nations as a jewish nation. A one-state solution would only further the conflict due to religious convictions.



All of your subsequent thoughts are based on this naive, hypothetical ideology, and are therefore irrelevant.



Quote:-allow deported/refugees to return to their original homes

--if homes are occupied or destroyed, state pays for new ones

-no one is allowed to be evicted or run off from their homes

If I understood you correctly, you are contradicting yourself.

And obviously, you failed to see the real issue, namely that the growth of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, the confiscation of land and the construction of security barriers have actively and intentionally diminished the chances for a peaceful solution.

The issue is that for a two-state solution, borders would have to be "drawn in a way that conforms with international legitimacy and establishes a Palestinian state (consisting of the West Bank and Gaza) that meets the criteria of independence, viability, governability and contiguity within the West Bank."

Dr. Kelman suggest to follow the 1967 armistice lines with mutually agreed-upon adjustments, so that Gaza and the Westbank are interconnected.

[Image: palestinian-loss-of-land1.jpg]

[Image: UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg]

[Image: Palestine_Land_ownership_by_sub-district_%281945%29.jpg]



This implies that Israel would have to withdraw from and return confiscated land to the Palestinians, which Israel meets with heavy reluctance and opposition.

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20-02-2014, 02:38 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
I am in favour of one-state solution but I am also in favour of the Atheist Easter Bunny.

Moodie x
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