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A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
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20-02-2014, 04:57 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
There's not one of us in this forum lacking the internet savvy to know before even having it the flame pit into which this conversation will inevitably lead.

The "solution" you're proposing will be unacceptable to both sides and like all other "solutions" before it is DoA. The only real "solution" ("conclusion" might be a more neutral term) will be an emergent steady political state that lasts long enough to become the de facto norm, so maybe a hundred years for things to shake out one way or another plus another hundred before people realize that a century of the "new normal" has given it unbreakable roots.
What the "new normal" is I can't really say; I don't think anyone can. The various barrier walls hint at what the future will look like, but a permanent border almost never looks like a gerrymandered political district, so who knows whether the walls won't be moved a hundred times before the final lockdown?

Eventually, though, the walls will stop moving, and every square inch of the Old Mandate of Palestine will be permanently allocated in the physical sense by these barriers. Give that a hundred years or two and that's it, a Two State Solution, even a Three State Solution* if Gaza and the West Bank drift apart politically, but in either case the conclusion to the Israel / Palestine conflict will be ground into reality by the ruthless passage of time across settled physical boundaries.


* There's another coincidentally named "Three State Solution" favored by some American Conservatives that has no chance of ever happening: Gaza reverts to Egypt and the West Bank reverts to Jordan. The insurmountable problem is that Egypt and Jordan want nothing to do with Palestinians; Jordan in particular has a lot of bad blood after the PLO tried to assassinate King Hussein bin Talal.
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20-02-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Now I'm not all that well versed in Israeli problems, at least only that the majority of their neighbouring states would like them wiped off the face of the earth...

But I'mma make a fool o' meself anyway, and say; wouldn't it be easiest for everyone involved if, I dunno, you cut Israel in half around the 32 Parallel, give the top half to the Palestinians, give the lower to the Israelis and call it a god-damned day? After that divide is done, they never need to see reps from either nation ever again; just draw their people back and stop squabbling like infants over a shitty toy which has no real value out side 'I want it!"...

Of course that is using some logic, which I am constantly reminded is not how politics or humanity on any scale works.

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20-02-2014, 06:17 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 06:33 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Jumpy Joshi Wrote:The "solution" you're proposing will be unacceptable to both sides and like all other "solutions" before it is DoA. The only real "solution" ("conclusion" might be a more neutral term) will be an emergent steady political state that lasts long enough to become the de facto norm, so maybe a hundred years for things to shake out one way or another plus another hundred before people realize that a century of the "new normal" has given it unbreakable roots.

Congratulations. You were very quick to demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about.

1) I am not the one who proposed the solution. I am merely siding with the view of Dr. Kelmann, whose paper I have provided at the beginning of the thread. If you had read my initial post, you would have known that.

2) The current situation is from a humanitarian point of view completely unacceptable. By favoring the current situation to become a de facto norm is as immoral as it can get.

Here is a UNEP report on the "Environmental Assessment of the Gaza Strip"

http://www.unep.org/pdf/dmb/unep_gaza_ea.pdf

3.2 Damages directly attributable to the recent escalation of violence

- It is clear from this assessment that the environment in the Gaza Strip following the escalation of violence in December 2008 and January 2009 is severely degraded. In some environmental sectors, the hostilities caused direct damage that was clearly distinguishable by satellite image analysis, reports from other UN agencies, visual inspection of the age of the damage, and chemical analysis.

- satellite imagery shows that 2,692 buildings were impacted; some of these buildings were completely destroyed, while others were partially damaged and rendered unsafe.

- In addition, a number of buildings were hit by ammunition that caused fires and partial or total destruction of the structure. Building fires contaminate the building and/or the resulting rubble with polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and, if chlorinated compounds are present, with dioxins and furans, all of which are extremely hazardous.

- PAH concentrations in the ash sample are not alarmingly high, yet the volatile nature of the naphthalene it contains may render the building useless for future use as a food storage area, as planned by the Red Crescent.

- At the El Swaity juice and food production factory in the Beit Lahia area in northern Gaza Strip, the cooling warehouse had been hit by a bomb and had burst into flames. The fire was further fuelled by flammable Styrofoam insulation. The contents of the warehouse burned away completely, leaving soot, ash, tar and burnt organic substances in the debris. Thus, the debris can be considered contaminated with PAHs and probably with polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), dioxins and furans as well.

- The recent escalation of hostilities led to the large-scale destruction of farmland, including orchards, greenhouses and open fields.

- The Gaza Strip is ecologically very vulnerable, as almost all agricultural land is situated within a few kilometres of desert-like sand dunes. Agriculture in the Gaza Strip is only sustained by the very delicate handling of the land by the farming community, which has generations of accumulated knowledge. The recent destruction of the vegetation cover has degraded the land in several ways.




Here is a UN Human Rights report on Israel's war crimes against Gaza:

http://cdm266901.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/col...l4/id/2161


September 15th, 2009 - Human Rights in Palestine and other Occupied Arab Territories (Report by the U.N. Human Rights Council)

"886. The Mission has recounted a number of incidents where it has particular concern about the choice to use white phosphorous. These incidents have been addressed in detail elsewhere and include the incidents at the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, the attacks on al-Quds and al-Wafa hospitals, also in Gaza City, and the use of white phosphorous in the attack on the Abu Halima family to the north of al-Atatra and in Khuz’a.

889. The Mission need not repeat much of what it has already concluded on the choice to use white phosphorous in specific circumstances. It has already made clear that the risks it posed to the civilian population and civilian objects in the area under attack were excessive in relation to the specific military advantages sought.

890. The Israeli Government has frequently pointed out the difficulties posed by fighting in built-up areas. One of the difficulties is the proximity of civilian premises to possible military targets. Commanders have no choice but to factor in the risk to such premises and the people inside them in deciding which weapons to use. The Mission finds that the Israeli armed forces were systematically reckless in determining to use white phosphorous in built-up areas and in particular in and around areas of particular importance to civilian health and safety."


Jumpy Joshi Wrote:The various barrier walls hint at what the future will look like, but a permanent border almost never looks like a gerrymandered political district, so who knows whether the walls won't be moved a hundred times before the final lockdown?

It sounds an awful lot as if you would see the Palestinians be locked away like some sort of criminals.

Jumpy Joshi Wrote:Give that a hundred years or two and that's it, a Two State Solution, even a Three State Solution* if Gaza and the West Bank drift apart politically

I assume I have to re-quote:
"Borders need to be drawn in a way that conforms with international legitimacy and establishes a Palestinian state (...) that meets the criteria of independence, viability, governability and contiguity within the West Bank."

What you suggest does not conform with international legitimacy of a state by any means. Are you being willfully inhumane or are you just uttering an ignorant opinion which has no basis what so ever with real world facts?

People should first inform themselves through credible sources and provide them to substantiate their thoughts and opinions before showing up on a forum and humiliating themselves.

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20-02-2014, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 06:35 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Free Thought Wrote:Now I'm not all that well versed in Israeli problems, at least only that the majority of their neighbouring states would like them wiped off the face of the earth...

You could easily remedy that by reading things. I have already posted some highly credible, pier-reviewed sources. It is easy to understand (but not sympathize with) nations, who have accumulated hatred towards a country, which has committed various war crimes and inhumanities without being punished. I am speaking of Israel of course. I have posted a UN Human Rights report in my previous post.

Freethought Wrote:But I'mma make a fool o' meself anyway, and say; wouldn't it be easiest for everyone involved if, I dunno, you cut Israel in half around the 32 Parallel, give the top half to the Palestinians, give the lower to the Israelis and call it a god-damned day? After that divide is done, they never need to see reps from either nation ever again; just draw their people back and stop squabbling like infants over a shitty toy which has no real value out side 'I want it!"...

That is a solution that the Palestinians are very much in favor of. A country that meets the criteria of independence, viability, governability and contiguity. However, this solution would necessitate Israel to give back confiscated land, which they have been heavily building settlements on, despite the fact that (or very likely because) this would actively diminish chances for successful peace negotiations.

Despite your naivety in this topic, I agree that what you suggest is a fair and humane solution.

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20-02-2014, 07:20 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Saying what I think will happen is different from saying what I think should happen, which I thought I made clear as I'm still not going to be dragged into any sort of normative commentary on the biggest flamebait in internet history. An Israel / Palestine flame war isn't on my to-do list today.
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20-02-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(20-02-2014 07:20 AM)Jumpy Joshi Wrote:  Saying what I think will happen is different from saying what I think should happen, which I thought I made clear as I'm still not going to be dragged into any sort of normative commentary on the biggest flamebait in internet history. An Israel / Palestine flame war isn't on my to-do list today.

Appreciated.

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20-02-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(20-02-2014 06:26 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You could easily remedy that by reading things. I have already posted some highly credible, pier-reviewed sources.

Pier-reviewed? Is that the quay to the solution? Will you go from pillar to post with this? Do these docks buttress your argument? I suppose whatever state will need to levee taxes to support this.

Facepalm

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20-02-2014, 07:57 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Sorry Youkay, I gave Chas a Like because he came up with some good puns. The pun in moderation can be good.
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20-02-2014, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2014 08:54 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Hahaha, that is absolutely fine. No hard feelings. Writing pier-reviewed instead of peer-reviewed is quite funny Big Grin This being Chas' only contribution is sad though...

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20-02-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(20-02-2014 08:08 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Hahaha, that is absolutely fine. No hard feelings. Writing pier-reviewed instead of peer-reviewed is quite funny Big Grin This being Chas' only contribution is sad though...

I'm sorry that you find my not contributing to a tediously unresolvable debate sad.

I find it sad that no one will mention, let alone acknowledge, that the very existence of the State of Israel is the problem.

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