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A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
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21-02-2014, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 09:39 PM by donotwant.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
I read about this conflict a lot and I been to Israel. The thing is what you suggest is crazy. Nobody is gonna give up half of the land which they got in a WAR which their neighbors started and wanted to destroy the whole country.
Nor will they let in their country millions of people who hate em and let em live next door.
Nor is it wise to give up a land for an unreliable peace treaty in a region where Iran is about to get nuke and is supplying weapons to militants all around Israel. And once land is given up forever what stops arabs from breaking treaty and attacking? No dude this is never going to happen.

Thing is I lived in the area with similar conflict. It's much different from inside then from the outside. It's very easy to talk about solutions while you got nothing to lose or give away and you didn't struggle for something for a century and have no alternatives and have enemies around you trying to kill you.
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21-02-2014, 09:48 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 09:52 PM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:12 PM)Youkay Wrote:  As a matter of fact, this thread mirrors people's general attitude quite well. Indifference, helplessness and a lack of indignation. People supporting posts that are either unproductive or even counter-productive. People believing in a never-ending conflict rather than actively and positively wanting to oppose misery. People accusing me with being self-righteous born out of their lack of sympathy.

That's because neither side in this is sympathetic and both sides have legitimate complaints. In the real world no there is no real solution because there is no political pressure to get one done. On one side you have the Israelis who have friends in high places but are borderline racist and very antagonistic. On the other side you have the Palestinians who would be sympathetic if they were not fully in support of terrorists and Genocide.


Just goes to show how little informed you are and how much on hear-say, news reports and misinformation you rely. Give me a credible source which would substantiate your statement for me to take it seriously.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  How does a 2 state solution work? Does Israel give over most of it's now developed land? How is that fair when it was not the Palestinians who built up those sections? Do we leave the Palestinians with what they have now, which is effectively nothing? That is unworkable.

Goes to show that you have not read a single source that I provided, choosing to remain ignorant and indifferent.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  However a 1 state solution is equally untenable at this juncture. Israel is not going to allow a huge population of militants into it's secure sections and lets face it there is no chance the Palestinians can militarily defeat the Israelis.

I agree that a one-state solution is practically a non-solution. But your one-sided accusation of Palestinians as militant in general goes to show your obvious bias. Plus, it again shows that you haven't had a look at a single source I provided.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Solutions would be for an Arab country to let most of the Palestinians become citizens of their country but nobody would go for that. They like using the plight of the Palestinians as a wag the dog tactic when their people get up in arms but do not give 2 fucks about their welfare.

More proof for your willfully ignorant bias.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Israel is not going away anytime soon and so long as Hamas is a main player in Palestinian politics (among other ultra militant groups) then no solution will be workable.

Even more proof that you haven't read ANYTHING what I posted. All the reports and papers contradict your position. You are totally ignorant and too lazy to educate yourself.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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21-02-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(21-02-2014 09:22 PM)donotwant Wrote:  In the basis that Israel was 3 times as small as it is now. Got attacked FIRST by 6 nations in the same time trying to get it annihilated.
Arabs lost land in the war they started and they are not getting it back and rightly so.
So which borders do you suggest? I don't think israel is gonna give up anything it has earned so far. So Palestinians should learn to be happy with what they got.
Youka Wrote:This is just the mentality that causes this dilemma. Have you even had a look at any sources that I posted? The UN Human Rights report and the UNEP report? You would notice that Isreal is the party that deserves scorn and condemnation for creating a situation that is internationally and uniformly regarded as a humanitarian crisis.

Now, please read up first, and then I am happy to listen to you. But before that, I am afraid that, whatever your opinion I do not respect it.

(21-02-2014 09:36 PM)donotwant Wrote:  I read about this conflict a lot and I been to Israel.

I told you I wouldn't take anything you say seriously until you demonstrate that you have actually actively informed yourself from credible sources. Now, what did you read? Please give me the sources you read.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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21-02-2014, 09:52 PM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(21-02-2014 09:48 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That's because neither side in this is sympathetic and both sides have legitimate complaints. In the real world no there is no real solution because there is no political pressure to get one done. On one side you have the Israelis who have friends in high places but are borderline racist and very antagonistic. On the other side you have the Palestinians who would be sympathetic if they were not fully in support of terrorists and Genocide.


Just goes to show how little informed you are and how much on hear-say, news reports and common sense you rely. Give me a credible source which would substantiate your statement for me to take it seriously.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  How does a 2 state solution work? Does Israel give over most of it's now developed land? How is that fair when it was not the Palestinians who built up those sections? Do we leave the Palestinians with what they have now, which is effectively nothing? That is unworkable.

Goes to show that you have not read a single source that I provided, choosing to remain ignorant and indifferent.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  However a 1 state solution is equally untenable at this juncture. Israel is not going to allow a huge population of militants into it's secure sections and lets face it there is no chance the Palestinians can militarily defeat the Israelis.

I agree that a one-state solution is practically a non-solution. But your one-sided accusation of Palestinians as militant in general goes to show your obvious bias. Plus, it again shows that you haven't had a look at a single source I provided.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Solutions would be for an Arab country to let most of the Palestinians become citizens of their country but nobody would go for that. They like using the plight of the Palestinians as a wag the dog tactic when their people get up in arms but do not give 2 fucks about their welfare.

More proof for your willfully ignorant bias.

(21-02-2014 09:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Israel is not going away anytime soon and so long as Hamas is a main player in Palestinian politics (among other ultra militant groups) then no solution will be workable.

Even more proof that you haven't read ANYTHING what I posted. All the reports and papers contradict your position. You are totally ignorant and too lazy to educate yourself.

Oh yes the mountain of 1 article. Mhmm listen I have followed this conflict for decades and guess what there is no easy solution. Your insistence on the Palestinians as innocent victims shows your bias.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-02-2014, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 10:01 PM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(21-02-2014 09:52 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:48 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Just goes to show how little informed you are and how much on hear-say, news reports and common sense you rely. Give me a credible source which would substantiate your statement for me to take it seriously.


Goes to show that you have not read a single source that I provided, choosing to remain ignorant and indifferent.


I agree that a one-state solution is practically a non-solution. But your one-sided accusation of Palestinians as militant in general goes to show your obvious bias. Plus, it again shows that you haven't had a look at a single source I provided.


More proof for your willfully ignorant bias.


Even more proof that you haven't read ANYTHING what I posted. All the reports and papers contradict your position. You are totally ignorant and too lazy to educate yourself.

Oh yes the mountain of 1 article. Mhmm listen I have followed this conflict for decades and guess what there is no easy solution. Your insistence on the Palestinians as innocent victims shows your bias.

Look here, idiot... Facepalm And thanks for proving my point that you really did not have a look.

Plus you can find further references and articles in the paper.

Post edit: And people, stop saying "I have read a lot, I have been there, bla bla" in a futile attempt to substantiate your position. Present me your position in a way that warrants consideration.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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22-02-2014, 01:19 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2014 01:27 AM by PoolBoyG.)
Star RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(20-02-2014 09:59 PM)Youkay Wrote:  These are awefully general and vague statements born out of ignorance and simplistic thinking.

PoolBoyG Wrote:Deported and refugees need to be allowed to return. Their residence are either returned or rebuilt, expenses paid for by the government.

Have a look at the maps. You will find that you are suggesting 80-90% of Israel to be returned to Palestinians.

PoolBoyG Wrote:If you continued reading I also said that then once everyone is in place, and given equal voting rights, they then must hold a referendum to determine future borders.

I did. I dismissed the rest of your post for being utterly naive, ideological and unrealistic. And I will do so again. Maybe you should read my posts properly, because I mentioned this before. Also, I sugget you do some deeper reading before you attempt to discuss this topic.

In your post, you continue to argue from a hypothetical position, which has absolutely no value. You are advertising a 1 nation transitional solution. What makes you so positive that your ideology can be applied to reality?

There is a reason, why the 1 state solution is considered to be a 1 state non-solution.

No one said anything about returning, or handing over territory.

If you're saying that the deported and refugees will make up the overwhelming majority (which may not be the case) and so any referendum will be entirely in their favor, fine. I get your point. If one region is a clear majority, fine. If another is split, fine.

BUT-

I do not believe "Palestinians" are of one mind. Neither are the "Israelis/Jews". What we will have is a region with more lawful citizens who will then vote for their borders. The clear majority will be appeased, and since EVERYONE is now being considered, the clear majority will be appeased.

Besides, any redrawing of borders to fit ideological voting blocks will most likely be meaningless and ineffectual.

The future governments will HAVE TO BE secular, with equal voting rights. I urge international campaigns to FORCE this. If people do vote as a block, based on religion, or language, or "race", all you have are identical states with one region promoting (but can't enforce) the wearing of one silly hat, while the other does the same with a different silly hat. If they want to force a language, then the majority will win. As it should. If the region is more divided and even, then there would be two official languages since they'd have equal weight in their government. And so on with a variety of other policies.

As I said, this is the most realistic, rational, and humane. There is no reasonable counter to working towards this arrangement (so far).

The outcome might be one country, two, or five. Whatever the outcome, it'll be the best one.
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22-02-2014, 02:08 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Previously, I said:

Quote:I dismissed the rest of your post for being utterly naive, ideological and unrealistic. And I will do so again.

Nothing has changed.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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23-02-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
All of this was expected, but it is still very revealing. The current crisis is and has been dragging on for so long because of too little extrinsic political pressure and favoritism towards the bully. This again can be attributed to Israeli-American propaganda with the deliberate intent to mislead and misinform. As any other political propaganda, this is achieved by instilling hate using easily accessible tools like religion, sense of community and sense of superiority.

Unfortunately, people that have commented in this thread represent the majority. They have been successfully misinformed and are simply too lazy to self-educate, even when presented with more credible sources. Furthermore, they are unable to acknowledge the fact that their opinion is heavily rivaled by most renown international establishments and personalities, preventing them from genuinely questioning their blind convictions.

I hope it is clear that raising public awareness will prove essential in dealing with this humanitarian crisis, which has already lasted for 60 years.

I leave you with this trailer:




And this documentary movie:



Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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23-02-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
A two-state resolution is both possible and ideal, but fuck it. I stopped caring because no one is willing to go the extra mile for the ideal. I think it is primarily just because I am tired of politics in general. There's no point in arguing with the mongoloids that subscribe to the antithesis of progress -- as I so found out last year. Instead I enjoy educating individuals in a more passive fashion.

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24-02-2014, 08:57 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Can you please share how you "educate in a more passive fashion"? Might be interesting to know.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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