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A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
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26-02-2014, 04:52 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2014 05:18 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Here is my response, TGAC

First link: http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/03/gaza-...air-trials

The author of the article starts by making two points:

- Since Hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed at least three men convicted on the basis of “confessions” apparently obtained under torture.

- extensive violations by Hamas security services, including:
  • warrantless arrests
  • failure to inform families promptly of detainees’ whereabouts
  • subjecting detainees to torture
  • violations of detainees’ rights

After making those two points, the article goes on to illustrate various cases.

In no way does this article support anything you said earlier or contradict anything that I said or posted. On the contrary, you have demonstrated that in addition to Israel infringing the human rights of Palestinians, there are also human rights violation within Gaza due to the Hamas regime. Therefore, the necessity to step in to protect the human rights of Palestinian people becomes even more essential.

I suppose you didn't even read the article yourself... Because it does absolutely not justify your position:

The Germans Are Comin Wrote:Fuck the Palestinians!
People who talk about genocide as if it were an agricultural reform do not deserve to be talked with, they deserve to be carpet bombed.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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26-02-2014, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 26-02-2014 09:02 AM by Youkay.)
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
Now let's have a look at your second link: http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/04/20/gaza-...gs-torture

This article reports on Hamas killing Palestinians during and after Israeli attacks and links a report that documents "arbitrary arrests and detentions, torture, maimings by shooting, and extrajudicial executions by alleged members of Hamas security forces", which is solely based on interviews and case reports of local people and organisations.

People that were executed were accused of being collaborators of recent Israeli attacks. According to Joe Stork, Hamas might have used this opportunity to violently progress against their political opposition.

Hamas authorities are urged to prosecute any security force member found to have violated the law, finding that 4 investigations into 32 deaths is not enough.

And it goes on and on about this topic. Again, I don't see how this is linked to the topic we are debating and how this would substantiate your position that Palestinians should not be allowed to found a nation with international legitimacy. It also does not support your strongly held position that Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis the victims. Instead, both articles that you shared report that Palestinian people are victims of the Hamas regime.

It is very evident that you searched for two articles that report negatively on Hamas and posted them without having a closer look yourself. On top, you lied when saying they are "latest studies". Both are around 5 years old, which is immediately visible when you open the link.

The Germans Are Comin Wrote:I am contributing, by showing that your "facts" are bullshit and what a disgusting antisemite you are.

You haven't negated any of my facts with any of your contributions. But I now understand that I can not expect you to read through the UN Human Rights report and the United Nations Environment Programme report that I posted earlier and actually understand my point of view. You didn't even read the very short articles that you posted yourself.

Regarding the antisemite accusation that you are ironically so fond of: I'm an Atheist. I do not care if someone is Jew, Christian or Muslim. In my view, they all have stupid beliefs. You on the other hand seem to care a big deal.

(17-02-2014 08:47 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Israel was created and it`s existance justified through the prosecution of the jews worldwide.
(17-02-2014 08:51 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(16-02-2014 11:42 PM)Chippy Wrote:  You can't undo the evils of your ancestors by being cunt towards the Palestinians. How is "Fuck the Palestinians!" better than "Fuck the Jews!"?
It is better because the Palestinians are uncivilised savages.

Suicide bombers, myogenists and stone age pedophile muftis worshiping Hitler who would have the entire world slither under their way of life!

Nobody who truely believes in democratic principles and the concept of human dignity would even waste a second on those disgusting people.
(17-02-2014 09:05 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
Chippy Wrote:Why should "Hizbollah, Hamas, Ayathola" go away when Palestinians are being dispossessed, brutalized and humiliated?

If they dont get away they should get smoked by bombs, and the Palestinians deserve their treatment!

@Revenant: After having failed so miserably, now you are siding with an extremist. You must be having a bad streak, don't you?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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27-02-2014, 04:35 AM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(25-02-2014 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 01:24 AM)Jumpy Joshi Wrote:  ... "drive the Jews into the sea" was the policy that led to Israeli independence in the first place.

It is a mistake to use the term "Israeli independence". There was no Israel to become independent.

Either the bullet passing through Franz Ferdinand's neck imbued millions of chroniclers with the psychic knowledge of the inevitability of World War II, or you shouldn't be correcting my vocabulary without double-checking your historical precedents.

(25-02-2014 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  This was pure imperialism, driven by guilt and self-interest.

It was pure survival, driven by the need to resist an impending genocide. I suppose survival counts as "self-interest", but your other ascribed motives where they existed at all were way down the list -- literally. Note Maslow's Hierarchy: Safety takes precedence over both Belonging and Esteem.
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25-04-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: A solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict
(21-02-2014 09:00 PM)Youkay Wrote:  “Suppose that a man leaps out of a burning building—as my dear friend and colleague Jeff Goldberg sat and said to my face over a table at La Tomate in Washington not two years ago—and lands on a bystander in the street below. Now, make the burning building be Europe, and the luckless man underneath be the Palestinian Arabs. Is this a historical injustice? Has the man below been made a victim, with infinite cause of complaint and indefinite justification for violent retaliation? My own reply would be a provisional 'no,' but only on these conditions. The man leaping from the burning building must still make such restitution as he can to the man who broke his fall, and must not pretend that he never even landed on him. And he must base his case on the singularity and uniqueness of the original leap. It can't, in other words, be 'leap, leap, leap' for four generations and more. The people underneath cannot be expected to tolerate leaping on this scale and of this duration, if you catch my drift. In Palestine, tread softly, for you tread on their dreams. And do not tell the Palestinians that they were never fallen upon and bruised in the first place. Do not shame yourself with the cheap lie that they were told by their leaders to run away. Also, stop saying that nobody knew how to cultivate oranges in Jaffa until the Jews showed them how. 'Making the desert bloom'—one of Yvonne's stock phrases—makes desert dwellers out of people who were the agricultural superiors of the Crusaders.”

Israel owes Palestinians for catching them mid fall. Under normal circumstances, they are obliged to recompense. And we are obliged to oppose inhumanities. The failure of peace negotiations and continuation of systematically disproportional Israeli aggression against Palestinians is a result of our indifference. We are the ones at fault. You can not expect the oppressed to stand up against their oppressors, especially if the oppressors are backed up by the most powerful countries in this world.

This is so outrageous that I joined your forum to call it out.

The Palestine Arabs pogrommed the Jews to get the British to cancel the mandate in 1920 (Nebi Musa Pogrom), 1921, 1929 (Hebron Pogrom), and then went into fullscale revolt (with secret shipments of German arms) in 1936-1939 (killing hundreds of Jews altogether), which led the perfidious treacherous British to close the doors of the mandate on the eve of the Holocaust.

The Palestine Arab irregulars fought on behalf of the Nazis, blowing up pipelines, damaging railways, etc. In fact, the Palmach Jewish strike force (the elite/shock troops of the Jewish volunteers) earned their stripes under the command of the famous British commando Orde Wingate fighting these irregulars.

The Palestine Arab leadership under Haj Amin el-Husseini actively collaborated with the Nazis, and in fact, he spent the entirety of the war in Berlin broadcasting antisemitic propaganda in Arabic while planning to extend the "long arm of the holocaust" into the Arab world. In fact, his plans with the nazis went far further than just paper, with the deployment of Walter Rauff (inventor of the Gas Vans at Chelmno extermination camp) and the Einsatzgruppe Egypt to the ports of Greece to be sent over in the event of a German breakthrough at El Alamein. Einsatzgruppe Egypt was eventually deployed to Cyrenaica (Italian Libya) and Tunisia, where they set up over 100 concentration/forced labor camps with Arab participation for the Jews of north Africa.

If the Palestine Arabs "caught the Jews halfway", it was in order to catch them on a pair of outstretched knives.

Nazi Palestine by Mallmann & Cüppers
Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World by Jeffrey Herf
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