A talk with my brother
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10-01-2012, 09:03 PM
A talk with my brother
My brother and I were talking one day and we started discussing religion. He asked me where do we get our morals if it didn't come from God. I tried to explain how we ,as humans,are social beings and that living in harmony with each other benefits us all. He kept saying "but where did our morals come from though? How do we defy that killing is wrong? How do we know that raping is wrong. Where did it come from." I don't know about any of you but I'm a horrible debater. I get tongue tied when I'm trying to come up with an answer. Sometimes Christians are really manipulative when it comes to debating. To be honest I really didn't know what to say. He also went on to say it takes faith to believe in the big bang theory."That's why it's called a theory" as he went on to say. I tried to tell him it doesn't take faith to believe in something that has evidence. His response was "faith means believing in something that can't be 100% proven. Neither belief can be 100% proven or disproved,so both require faith". In other words, that's our faith that the universe was started with the big bang because we weren't there to see it happen. I was totally speechless,not because I believed what he was saying,but because I just didn't know what to say to debunk it. Do any of you ever come across people like this? Do you ever get tongue tied? What do you say in response? Anyone?
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10-01-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
(10-01-2012 09:03 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  What do you say in response? Anyone?

Bigcatlover - did you read my blog on this topic? Share it with your brother if you think it helps...

http://centersolid.blogspot.com/2012/01/...orals.html

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10-01-2012, 09:08 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
the·o·ry
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.
3.
Mathematics . a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4.
the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5.
a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles: conflicting theories of how children best learn to read.

Also it doesn't take faith to not believe in something, it's only required when attempting to believe something you can't actually test.

As for the morality issue, ask him if he'd like to be raped. Or murdered. If he says no ask him if it's because god says it's bad (which god doesn't, only bad to do not have done) or if it's because it would just kind of suck.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-01-2012, 09:14 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Also, ask him how morality developed outside of nomadic Judaism and his chosen peeps. How did Hindus develop the Yamas without Yahweh?

The Yamas
Since Yama comes from the root word ‘yam’ ‘to hold’ or ‘to rule’, yama yoga represents the behaviours that ‘control’ certain negative tendencies (the ‘animal/instinctive nature’) that occur in all human beings. These are the five ideals of:
Ahimsa (non-violence)
Satya (truth)
Asteya (non-stealing, or non-cheating)
Brahmacharya (continence, involving self-restraint and moderation in all you do)
Aparigraha (non-coveting, including no envy, jealousy or unhealthy competitiveness).

How about the 5 precepts of our cousin atheists, Buddhists?

1. Do not kill
2. Do not steal
3. Do not indulge in sexual misconduct
4. Do not make false speech
5. Do not take intoxicants

Humans develop morality and ethics - only Christians go to great lengths to say they come from a god...jeesh I get tired of this argument...

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10-01-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Thanks for the advice guys. I'm sorry if it's been brought up before. I should have checked the threads first.
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10-01-2012, 09:22 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Not a massive deal really, it's only ten lashes and fifteen hours of community service.

Besides whether it's been brought up before or not, it can be taxing rifling through all of our old threads for the n00bs.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-01-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
(10-01-2012 09:03 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  My brother and I were talking one day and we started discussing religion. He asked me where do we get our morals if it didn't come from God. I tried to explain how we ,as humans,are social beings and that living in harmony with each other benefits us all. He kept saying "but where did our morals come from though? How do we defy that killing is wrong? How do we know that raping is wrong. Where did it come from." I don't know about any of you but I'm a horrible debater. I get tongue tied when I'm trying to come up with an answer. Sometimes Christians are really manipulative when it comes to debating. To be honest I really didn't know what to say. He also went on to say it takes faith to believe in the big bang theory."That's why it's called a theory" as he went on to say. I tried to tell him it doesn't take faith to believe in something that has evidence. His response was "faith means believing in something that can't be 100% proven. Neither belief can be 100% proven or disproved,so both require faith". In other words, that's our faith that the universe was started with the big bang because we weren't there to see it happen. I was totally speechless,not because I believed what he was saying,but because I just didn't know what to say to debunk it. Do any of you ever come across people like this? Do you ever get tongue tied? What do you say in response? Anyone?

Whenever Christians say that our morals came from their god I ask them to point out how? If they mention the bible I immediately start to collapse with laughter. It's taken humanity 2000 years to get rid of most of their god's pathetic, inhumane, anti-social morals.

How do we know that killing is wrong? Because it's something that we wouldn't like to happen to us. Same as rape, same as stealing. Always follow the golden rule. Dpn't do anything to any other person that you wouldn't like done to you. It's a rule that's been part of every religion and society long before old Yahweh was invented.

Society in a democracy votes for its laws, they don't pay any attention to a god.

If Christians believe that our morals came from their god then where did humans get their morals from before the evil Hebrew/Christian god was invented? Or were all humans immoral before Yahweh?

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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10-01-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
(10-01-2012 09:19 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  Thanks for the advice guys. I'm sorry if it's been brought up before. I should have checked the threads first.

Sorry - wasn't directing my disdain at you; just at how many times I hear the god/morality bs issue - that grows tiresome...

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10-01-2012, 10:01 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Seasbury - Thanks for the article though. I found it really helpful.
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10-01-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Our morals come from a rational consideration of the consequences of our actions and empathy for anothers suffering and pain that maybe caused by ours or someone elses actions.
A morally right action promotes the health, happiness or well being or minimizes harm or suffering or both.
A morally wrong action diminishes health, happiness or well being or causes unnecessary harm or suffering or both.

A god cannot give you something that you gain from being born in a culture that already obtained it's morals throughout the course of the evolutionary survival benefits from empathy, and a biological desire to cooperate as a means for survival. As a species, we survived when we worked together versus the greed of the individual who did things to please his or her own desires.

Killing is wrong because it diminishes health to the point of death. It causes harm and suffering
As human beings we are concerned with the well being of conscious creatures, because we ourselves are conscious and we have gained the empathy for others because we know the pain we feel is also felt by others who experience the same actions.

If a fire burns me and it hurts, I know it will burn you and hurt you. My experience of pain leads me to stop you from getting burned by the fire because if another person is hurt, I can understand their pain and feel sympathy for their pain. I will feel emotional pain when someone else is in physical pain. This is called caring for another person.

None of these things that we do as a surviving species who has learned to cooperate and live together for the past 200,000 years was ever given by a non-existent god that was invented 2000 yrs ago.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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