A talk with my brother
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10-01-2012, 10:40 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Try asking him where his morals come from.

If he says God, ask him how he knows what God wants.

If he says the Bible, point out that wherever he gets his morals, it's certainly not the Bible. Point out the stories of genocide, rape, child sacrifices, and immoral laws. A quick google search should turn up the specific examples of these.

Another strategy is to ask him, "If you found out that there was absolutely 100% certainly no God, would start murdering and raping?" Almost everyone will answer no, then all you have to do is point out that their morals must come from somewhere else then.
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11-01-2012, 12:18 AM
RE: A talk with my brother
"If your god one day announced that rape is morally good, would you do that?" is what I would ask him.
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11-01-2012, 01:52 AM
RE: A talk with my brother
(11-01-2012 12:18 AM)imralav Wrote:  "If your god one day announced that rape is morally good, would you do that?" is what I would ask him.

"My God will never do that" He will reply. "That is the Devil and not God".

Basically it's easy. If you disagree with what God wants you to do, then it's the Devil, otherwise it's God.
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11-01-2012, 11:59 AM
 
RE: A talk with my brother
Direct him to the book of Genesis and have him list the long line of morals he finds...........

THEN ask him to read Genesis and describe the 'nature' of the god in that book.

The god in Genesis is morally bankrupt.

Typically folks have this peace/love/hippy concept of god..which is actually a 'wishful' version of what they'd like christ to be....but all christ is...is the taxi driver to god.

God is evil......who cares how you get to him!

If you are dealing with a trinity believing person...then PART of god is a killing machine and the other part of god is a socialist hippy with anger problems from time to time. SO is god bi polar? All we know about the holy spirit is he is the 'penis' of god that impregnates virgins.

My question is "If you FOLLOW the WORKS and ACTS of god, HOW CAN YOU BE MORAL AT ALL?????"

To follow by his example assures murder, slavery, rape and many other greatest hits that Atheist consider morally WRONG!

D
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11-01-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Yeah,I tried explaining these points to him but ,as you all would guess,I got no where with it. He says "Well stoning women for adultery was the law back then." I then ask him why did god change his mind on his laws. But of course all I get is circular reasoning. I guess the reason I started this thread is because I have no one to talk about this to. I'm the only one in my family that's not a christian. It's hard to find anyone in East Texas that understands where I come from. I guess I was just getting my frustration out.
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11-01-2012, 02:38 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
(11-01-2012 01:42 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  Yeah,I tried explaining these points to him but ,as you all would guess,I got no where with it. He says "Well stoning women for adultery was the law back then." I then ask him why did god change his mind on his laws. But of course all I get is circular reasoning. I guess the reason I started this thread is because I have no one to talk about this to. I'm the only one in my family that's not a christian. It's hard to find anyone in East Texas that understands where I come from. I guess I was just getting my frustration out.

We'll talk with you. We'll help you with your arguments. We'll suggest you get the fuck out of Texas.Cool

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2012, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 04:56 PM by kim.)
RE: A talk with my brother
(11-01-2012 01:42 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  East Texas.

Well, that kind of says it right there. The US Holy Land of the religious right.
I have two cousins: One lives in Houston (E TX) and the other lives in W TX (a shit hole).
Cuz Mike loves his brother, but has told me very seriously he would rather live in a shit hole on the other side of the state, than put up his brother's East Texas-holier-than-thou bullshit.
My sympathies.
***
Maybe the fact that it's your brother you are speaking with, that gets you tongue-tied. There can be a lot of emotion going on with this kind of debate; you are talking about good vs evil, rape, murder -very emotionally charged things. That drama plays deeply to any human... but it especially plays to a Theist who actually believes his own flesh and blood has lost his soul. He can't believe you would choose to doom yourself. And there's guilt & shame by association. If he can't save you... well, he must not be a very good Christian. His entire life is centered around belief and you are in a sense, telling him that he is doing his entire life all wrong. He could be on the verge of resentment.
Calmly, gently, but very firmly let him know that you are ok. You are just as ok now as before he thought otherwise. He doesn't see you as having grown up, so much as grown away. Continually reassure him that your relationship with him and everyone is exactly the same -if not better, since you don't feel burdened to live with what you see is a lie.
Hang in there.
There's always life online. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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11-01-2012, 03:58 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
When dealing with the delusional and irrational, you may have to use their illogic against them.
If rape is a sin, then why is a sin a bad thing ?
If sinning goes against gods law, then what is the punishment ?
There is no punishment if you are saved, no justice for your wrong deeds, so why don't you rape ?
Why don't you as a christian murder and rape anyone you so please, since there is no punishment for these crimes.

God isn't going to punish anyone who is saved, so how can this be a moral foundation for anything ?
These are the morals from god
Kill as much as you want
Rape anyone you want
Be as sinful and horrific as you want as long as you believe in me, you will never have to pay for your crimes.

Ask your brother if this is the moral foundation that he bases his life on ?

Or is he a good person because your parents taught him how to behave in a civilized society.
Is he a good person because he was taught right from wrong and showed how to treat people with respect and regard for life.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-01-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
Quote:We'll suggest you get the fuck out of Texas


Most of my family lives in Texas but the ones that don't live in Utah and are very deep into Mormonism. So I guess i'll just have to move somewhere where I know no one.lol
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11-01-2012, 08:10 PM
RE: A talk with my brother
(10-01-2012 09:03 PM)bigcatlover2000 Wrote:  My brother and I were talking one day and we started discussing religion. He asked me where do we get our morals if it didn't come from God. I tried to explain how we ,as humans,are social beings and that living in harmony with each other benefits us all. He kept saying "but where did our morals come from though? How do we defy that killing is wrong? How do we know that raping is wrong. Where did it come from." I don't know about any of you but I'm a horrible debater. I get tongue tied when I'm trying to come up with an answer. Sometimes Christians are really manipulative when it comes to debating. To be honest I really didn't know what to say. He also went on to say it takes faith to believe in the big bang theory."That's why it's called a theory" as he went on to say. I tried to tell him it doesn't take faith to believe in something that has evidence. His response was "faith means believing in something that can't be 100% proven. Neither belief can be 100% proven or disproved,so both require faith". In other words, that's our faith that the universe was started with the big bang because we weren't there to see it happen. I was totally speechless,not because I believed what he was saying,but because I just didn't know what to say to debunk it. Do any of you ever come across people like this? Do you ever get tongue tied? What do you say in response? Anyone?

The answer, if you don't know, is "I don't know". It's best not to speak with certainty about things that you aren't certain about. It's even better to respond "I don't know, but let's find the answer together".

The answer to "where do our morals come from?" is just a red herring - it doesn't prove that the bible's true, only that it would be desirable for the bible to be true (because it would make moral questions easier). This question is akin to "where did word definitions come from before there was a dictionary?" Just because something isn't written down in a book doesn't make it nonexistant. Richard Dawkins does a much better job of explaining this in The God Delusion when he explains Zeitgeist.

Faith, according to Sam Harris in Letter to a Christian Nation, is "the license that believers give to each other to keep on believing when facts fail". It's an excuse for people to believe in silly things. When your horoscope doesn't come true, is it because horoscopes can't predict your future or is it because of mysterious causes that are beyond your understanding? Faith in astrology can overcome the evidence, but it's not wise or intelligent to ignore the evidence in deference to faith. Without faith, you'd be able to see the truth behind your belief in astrology. Faith is a stumbling block, not a stepladder.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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