A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
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10-01-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
Mr. Tom,
KC has already answered the question of creation numerous times in his Ask A Theist thread. His views on such are now fairly well known. To prevent this thread from turning into that thread I suggest you refer to that mammoth thread. It's full of lots of interesting discussions regarding his understanding of the bible.

I can tell you that from what I remember of his belief, he believes that god had a hand in evolution. Which would make the creation story to him more of the poetic license thing. Or layman's terms of the time.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-01-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 10:20 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Poetic license only works if you don't believe that the bible is literal truth. Otherwise it doesn't work at all.
In which case germany has a point. But it has to sit there right along side all the other points against the bible being a literal work. Adam and Eve... talking snake.... noah.... we know em all. It usually starts out like "If God can do anything why would he...." insert anything found within the bible.
I boil it all down to "If god... then why?" because to me saying god did anything, doesn't even begin to answer any questions. Why god?

Accepting the Bible as fact is an act of faith, not an act of reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-01-2012, 11:15 AM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
I know.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-01-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 10:49 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Mr. Tom,
KC has already answered the question of creation numerous times in his Ask A Theist thread. His views on such are now fairly well known. To prevent this thread from turning into that thread I suggest you refer to that mammoth thread. It's full of lots of interesting discussions regarding his understanding of the bible.

I can tell you that from what I remember of his belief, he believes that god had a hand in evolution. Which would make the creation story to him more of the poetic license thing. Or layman's terms of the time.

Agreed. He probably did answer the question already somewhere.
My apologies for missing that. If he had a comment on how he came to his conclusion, I would be grateful to a direct link to the page etc.
My real motivation in my line of questions for him is to determine the methods that he uses to determine which ideas and facts are correct and which ones he rejects.
While I have not read ALL of his posts, he comes off to me as incredibly disingenuous and squirmy in defending his thought process.
Like most folks glued to their god glasses, he does not apply the same set of reasoning skills to his belief system than to the many other things around him.
From what I have read so far, there are lots of words and lots of posts giving a genuine warm and cozy feeling. Yet there is little substance in the way and how he comes to his conclusions.
At some point to maintain their faith position, the religious must stray from a reasonable position to accommodate the nonsense. That is where I am going with this.
It is that critical point where reason breaks down in his thinking I am trying to pin down.
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10-01-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 11:18 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 10:49 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Mr. Tom,
KC has already answered the question of creation numerous times in his Ask A Theist thread. His views on such are now fairly well known. To prevent this thread from turning into that thread I suggest you refer to that mammoth thread. It's full of lots of interesting discussions regarding his understanding of the bible.

I can tell you that from what I remember of his belief, he believes that god had a hand in evolution. Which would make the creation story to him more of the poetic license thing. Or layman's terms of the time.

Agreed. He probably did answer the question already somewhere.
My apologies for missing that. If he had a comment on how he came to his conclusion, I would be grateful to a direct link to the page etc.
My real motivation in my line of questions for him is to determine the methods that he uses to determine which ideas and facts are correct and which ones he rejects.
While I have not read ALL of his posts, he comes off to me as incredibly disingenuous and squirmy in defending his thought process.
Like most folks glued to their god glasses, he does not apply the same set of reasoning skills to his belief system than to the many other things around him.
From what I have read so far, there are lots of words and lots of posts giving a genuine warm and cozy feeling. Yet there is little substance in the way and how he comes to his conclusions.
At some point to maintain their faith position, the religious must stray from a reasonable position to accommodate the nonsense. That is where I am going with this.
It is that critical point where reason breaks down in his thinking I am trying to pin down.


It's probably in his stickied thread Ask A Theist in the Atheism/Theism forum.

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10-01-2012, 11:28 AM
 
RE: A thought just occurred to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 11:18 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 10:49 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Mr. Tom,
KC has already answered the question of creation numerous times in his Ask A Theist thread. His views on such are now fairly well known. To prevent this thread from turning into that thread I suggest you refer to that mammoth thread. It's full of lots of interesting discussions regarding his understanding of the bible.

I can tell you that from what I remember of his belief, he believes that god had a hand in evolution. Which would make the creation story to him more of the poetic license thing. Or layman's terms of the time.

Agreed. He probably did answer the question already somewhere.
My apologies for missing that. If he had a comment on how he came to his conclusion, I would be grateful to a direct link to the page etc.
My real motivation in my line of questions for him is to determine the methods that he uses to determine which ideas and facts are correct and which ones he rejects.
While I have not read ALL of his posts, he comes off to me as incredibly disingenuous and squirmy in defending his thought process.
Like most folks glued to their god glasses, he does not apply the same set of reasoning skills to his belief system than to the many other things around him.
From what I have read so far, there are lots of words and lots of posts giving a genuine warm and cozy feeling. Yet there is little substance in the way and how he comes to his conclusions.
At some point to maintain their faith position, the religious must stray from a reasonable position to accommodate the nonsense. That is where I am going with this.
It is that critical point where reason breaks down in his thinking I am trying to pin down.

I Kinda agree here. I stated in a post somewhere that KC's adopted some New Agy Semi-non biblical approach to his faith (and then playing the Translation card). Its hard to know when SOUND doctrine is applied and Metaphor is applied.

I THINK he's got some belief of "God created Evolution" but i have not seen where he can demonstrate any biblical evidence for it, or any evidence that god had his hand IN evolution, non biblically.

He seems perched somewhere between Quasi New Age Christian and Agnostic.

Not trying to PIN him down to win, never my intent in a debate. But more importantly to sus out real facts vs 'feelings' or 'revaluations'.

As 'Revelations' to someone could mean anything...and many times ends with 3 toddlers drowned in a bathtub and a nifty Mug Shot of the mom.
D
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10-01-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: A thought just occurred to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 11:28 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 11:18 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 10:49 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Mr. Tom,
KC has already answered the question of creation numerous times in his Ask A Theist thread. His views on such are now fairly well known. To prevent this thread from turning into that thread I suggest you refer to that mammoth thread. It's full of lots of interesting discussions regarding his understanding of the bible.

I can tell you that from what I remember of his belief, he believes that god had a hand in evolution. Which would make the creation story to him more of the poetic license thing. Or layman's terms of the time.

Agreed. He probably did answer the question already somewhere.
My apologies for missing that. If he had a comment on how he came to his conclusion, I would be grateful to a direct link to the page etc.
My real motivation in my line of questions for him is to determine the methods that he uses to determine which ideas and facts are correct and which ones he rejects.
While I have not read ALL of his posts, he comes off to me as incredibly disingenuous and squirmy in defending his thought process.
Like most folks glued to their god glasses, he does not apply the same set of reasoning skills to his belief system than to the many other things around him.
From what I have read so far, there are lots of words and lots of posts giving a genuine warm and cozy feeling. Yet there is little substance in the way and how he comes to his conclusions.
At some point to maintain their faith position, the religious must stray from a reasonable position to accommodate the nonsense. That is where I am going with this.
It is that critical point where reason breaks down in his thinking I am trying to pin down.

I Kinda agree here. I stated in a post somewhere that KC's adopted some New Agy Semi-non biblical approach to his faith (and then playing the Translation card). Its hard to know when SOUND doctrine is applied and Metaphor is applied.

I THINK he's got some belief of "God created Evolution" but i have not seen where he can demonstrate any biblical evidence for it, or any evidence that god had his hand IN evolution, non biblically.

He seems perched somewhere between Quasi New Age Christian and Agnostic.

Not trying to PIN him down to win, never my intent in a debate. But more importantly to sus out real facts vs 'feelings' or 'revaluations'.

As 'Revelations' to someone could mean anything...and many times ends with 3 toddlers drowned in a bathtub and a nifty Mug Shot of the mom.
D

Thank you.
I am not trying to Pin for the Win either.
I am eager to understand the thought process, or methods used to form conclusions is all.
For religion to have the ability to generate SO many differing opinions, there has to be a common stumbling block over which they all trip.
I would really love to understand that fully.

Idea....paging Dan Dennett...Dan Dannett come to the Forum please.....Dan Dennett.
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10-01-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
I was going to respond on the assertion about my beliefs and explain why it's not Dues ex Machina and New Agey, but I really just don't feel like it.

Sorry guys. One day maybe... just kind of in a "bleh" mood today.

Also, Tom, let me try and find the stuff about Genesis that I wrote.

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10-01-2012, 01:00 PM
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 12:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I was going to respond on the assertion about my beliefs and explain why it's not Dues ex Machina and New Agey, but I really just don't feel like it. Huh

Sorry guys. One day maybe Rolleyes... just kind of in a "bleh" mood today. Dodgy

Also, Tom, let me try and find the stuff about Genesis that I wrote.



I look forward to reading your "stuff about Genesis" and to your feeling better. Big Grin
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10-01-2012, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2012 03:30 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: A thought just occured to me concerning Genesis and creation.
(10-01-2012 01:00 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(10-01-2012 12:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I was going to respond on the assertion about my beliefs and explain why it's not Dues ex Machina and New Agey, but I really just don't feel like it. Huh

Sorry guys. One day maybe Rolleyes... just kind of in a "bleh" mood today. Dodgy

Also, Tom, let me try and find the stuff about Genesis that I wrote.



I look forward to reading your "stuff about Genesis" and to your feeling better. Big Grin

Taken from the Ask a Theist thread:

First, my Genesis framework needs to be established:

1) Normal evolution (as stated by science) occurred on earth.
2) Humanity eventually evolved.
3) God ordained humanity and placed His image upon us.
4) Adam was a literal man.
5) God made a covenant with Adam.
6) Adam and Eve weren’t the first humans; they were the first of God’s chosen.
7) I believe that Hebrew oral history predates other histories; however, their written does not.
8) The creation story of Genesis is written as cosmology – a way to convey a story to an audience.
9) The creation account is not meant to be taken literally; however, Adam was a literal person. The language of the creation story shifts from exalted to narrative when it begins with literal Adam’s history.
10) The Hebrews understood Adam as a “beginning” and he became synonymous with “origins”. He became known as an archetype for humanity according to the understanding of the Hebrews because he was the first of God’s chosen.
11) The cosmology of the creation story uses the concept of this Adamic beginning/archetype and conveys a story to the readers in a way that they would understand God’s covenant and purpose.
12) There was a literal Adam and a figurative Adam. The literal Adam’s symbolism of what he represented was used as a language (story).


Also, go here.

Oh and here.

Here too.

And, for more about what I believe theologically visit here, here, and here.

For more of my views go here.

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