A universe from nothing
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-11-2010, 01:11 AM
A universe from nothing
I have an issue.
I heard a creationist argument of a universe from nothing.
I watched a lecture from Michael Krauss called "A universe from nothing" were he presents dark matter and the fact that the total sum of the universe is 0 , so it didn't need a creator.
I looked through Stephen Hawking's the Grand Design and on page 8 I see "a universe from nothing".I haven't read the book so it just looks odd.Still the claim is the same : no creator required.
I doubt Professor Hawking neglects physics.(law of conservation of energy)

As I understand it , the universe exists in our current form due to a quantum fluctuation that lead to the inflation we call "The Big Bang".

Anyone help me refute creationist claims ?
Did anyone read Grand Design and understand the context better ?

Physicists welcome.

PS I apologize in advance if this is a stupid thread.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-11-2010, 02:00 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
The only universe from nothing that I am aware of come from creationists and religion. Science postulates that all the matter of the universe may have been in one tiny place known as a singularity. This singularity exploded by expanding into the universe we have today.
PS. If you don't read the whole book, you may miss important information that is nessessary to understanding the part you skipped to. I didn't read it so I can't help you there at this time.
PPS. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask. You needed the tread to ask the questions, therefore the thread is not stupid.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-11-2010, 06:20 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
some creatards will say "well what made the singularity?" time didn't start until the universe began, before that there is no 'when' the singularity is -from what I remember of a few stephen hawking lectures- a point where the forces of our universe melding together.
It is as the religious describe their god "everything and nothing, the eternally uncreated creator"

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-11-2010, 01:52 PM
 
RE: A universe from nothing
The universe from nothing is a valid concept of physics. I'm not sure exactly how, but it is. Supposedly the total energy of the universe sums to 0, so the singularity could have risen spontaneously without any explanation as to why.
Quote this message in a reply
19-11-2010, 11:14 PM
RE: A universe from nothing
There is an explanation. We not be able to find that explanation right now, or maybe not at all, but there is one. It is possible that scientists are onto it now and they just need more confirmation. If the explanation is found, it will be found by scientific methods and not from a book written in the iron age.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2010, 07:41 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
(19-11-2010 01:52 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  The universe from nothing is a valid concept of physics. I'm not sure exactly how, but it is. Supposedly the total energy of the universe sums to 0, so the singularity could have risen spontaneously without any explanation as to why.

(19-11-2010 11:14 PM)No J. Wrote:  There is an explanation. We not be able to find that explanation right now, or maybe not at all, but there is one. It is possible that scientists are onto it now and they just need more confirmation. If the explanation is found, it will be found by scientific methods and not from a book written in the iron age.

Yet if you explain this to a theist they will call you irrational and try to justify creation with logic.

Logic and science does not fit hand-in-hand.
Think of the statistics of abiogenesis, its logical to conclude that the chances of it happening are 0 to none, and yet experiments like the one conducted at the miller-urey university have proven its quite capable of happening and more likely than not to happen.

most of you will see where I'm going with this.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2010, 08:03 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
What you're reall dealing with here is yet another manifestation of the "God Hypothesis". If science doesn't yet have an explanation for it, it must be God. We've kicked this around enough times that I don't think it's necessary to explain it again.

I think there is also a secondary issue with things like the Big Bang: it's really very complex and difficult to understand. I understand the basics of it, but it would not take long for someone to exhaust my knowledge on the topic and ask a question or make a point that I could not respond to. Then you get the "ah ha!" moment followed up by the smugness of having "proved" science can't explain it and therefore its God.

The problem with this is that it only proves that I can't explain it. There are people who spend a lifetime studying this stuff and they can explain it. Whether or not they can explain it in a way that laymen can follow it is an entirely different matter. And, when they can't, then it gets dismissed as gibberish.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2010, 08:11 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
(20-11-2010 08:03 AM)BnW Wrote:  What you're reall dealing with here is yet another manifestation of the "God Hypothesis". If science doesn't yet have an explanation for it, it must be God. We've kicked this around enough times that I don't think it's necessary to explain it again.

I think there is also a secondary issue with things like the Big Bang: it's really very complex and difficult to understand. I understand the basics of it, but it would not take long for someone to exhaust my knowledge on the topic and ask a question or make a point that I could not respond to. Then you get the "ah ha!" moment followed up by the smugness of having "proved" science can't explain it and therefore its God.

The problem with this is that it only proves that I can't explain it. There are people who spend a lifetime studying this stuff and they can explain it. Whether or not they can explain it in a way that laymen can follow it is an entirely different matter. And, when they can't, then it gets dismissed as gibberish.


exactly!
I got into an argument with shock a while ago, most of his responses made it sound like he thought he WAS the christian god, and due to practicality reasons I don't have an in depth understanding of EVERY field of science. To which he berates me and, makes more comments about how perfect he and his god-fearing brethren are and make a video dedicated to my "ignorance"

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2010, 09:35 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
I'm rather new to this "theist/atheist" debate. My only exposure to it is this forum. I don't really look at youtube much, even what is posted here, and I don't troll around a lot of forums. I simply do not have the time. This forum is my sole exposure to the whole online atheist community, and it is one of two message boards I ever look at (the other one is completely unrelated to anything like this and my name here is a short hand of my forum name there).

Anyway, my observation, based on admittedly a very limited view of the whole thing, is that there is a need for these two communities to dismiss and disprove each other and a whole lot of "gotcha" types of posts, as well as out right attacks on the "other" side. I'm not criticizing it, It's just what I've noticed. To some extent, it seems pointless: no one is going to change their opinion based on what they read on the internet. No atheist is going to convert to theism based on these forums and no theist is likely to renounce their faith based on these discussions. So, what is the point?

I think the answer to that question is the satisfaction we all get when we feel we've "won" a point, whether we really have or not. Human nature, I guess. And, I'm just as guilty of enjoying this as anyone. I enjoy the debate aspect of this and what some may see as a "fued" I see as (to paraphrase Unbeliever) just flexing the intellectual muscle and giving it a work out. I never take this stuff too seriously, though.

I guess the point here is I wouldn't stress much over getting trapped on your limited ability to fully explain the science. My guess is Carl Sagan could return from the dead and answer all these questions in detail to the people you are discussing with, and they still would remain not only unconvinced but claim victory.

And that's fine. Everyone should have the right to claim victory in a meaningless battle. It reminds me of a the old Wallace Stanley Sayre quote: ""Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2010, 09:48 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
true enough really.
Its just a shit slinging contest is all it is, albeit ours is real while theirs is imaginary (take that as you will)

As my law teacher said just recently "I argue because if I don't say anything it feels like I'm agreeing with them"

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: