A universe from nothing
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20-11-2010, 10:04 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
Quote:As my law teacher said just recently "I argue because if I don't say anything it feels like I'm agreeing with them"

That is perfect, and that quote often describes me perfectly. Must be a lawyer thing.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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20-11-2010, 10:27 PM
RE: A universe from nothing
(20-11-2010 07:41 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  Logic and science does not fit hand-in-hand.
Think of the statistics of abiogenesis, its logical to conclude that the chances of it happening are 0 to none, and yet experiments like the one conducted at the miller-urey university have proven its quite capable of happening and more likely than not to happen.

Actually logic and science do go hand in hand. Logic works best when you have accurate data and your thinking proccess is reality based and unbiased. Science uses logic better than any other discipline because it updates inaccurate data better than any other discipline. The arguement above states a chance of 0 to none. What it doesn't state is that by the time you read the article that you got it from, that statistic had already been updated in science because it was proven to be innaccurate. Religion, on the other hand is still spewing out ideas that have been proven to be false centuries ago.
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07-12-2010, 04:29 PM
RE: A universe from nothing
From what I understand, the begining of the universe is mostly mathematic. But one idea that I came upon a while is this:

E = MC^2

A fairly simple concept. Increase any mass to the speed of light squared and it is pure energy, do the opposite to energy and it is pure mass.

It is idealized that at one point the universe was pure energy. This equation demonstrates that if we slow the energy down, it will become mass. This is apparently where the mass came from; energy, being slowed down.

Fight the system,

~~~but don't mute the opposition!~~~
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07-12-2010, 11:36 PM
RE: A universe from nothing
Good point. This is probably been calculated by now, we just don't get to hear or read all of the details.
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08-12-2010, 12:46 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
@OP: I believe you meant to say Lawrence Krauss, not Michael.
I've watched the lecture as well, it's great. It's an entire hour
long but I seriously recommend it to everyone. Very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

http://www.youtube.com/user/MindprowlerMusic
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08-12-2010, 09:00 AM
RE: A universe from nothing
(20-11-2010 09:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  To some extent, it seems pointless: no one is going to change their opinion based on what they read on the internet. No atheist is going to convert to theism based on these forums and no theist is likely to renounce their faith based on these discussions. So, what is the point?
I partially agree with you, however, your statement here is a bit too broad of a stroke for me to let it slide (no hostility intended, of course). The fact is you just never know. I myself was once a theist (or a deist with Christian leanings) and in fact it was discussions like these, specifically on the internet, that helped me to see the faults in my thinking. Along with essays and videos and all types of other stuff. It may not matter to the people having the discussion (but it can), but you also never know who it might affect that may be watching or reading.

I know you said you don't have the time, and that's cool, but if you searched you'd find hundreds or thousands of cases like mine, on youtube and on forums, where people DID change their minds and give up their beliefs. More so, I think, than people changing from atheism to theism, but I don't actually have any data on that so that's just a hunch.

(20-11-2010 09:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  I think the answer to that question is the satisfaction we all get when we feel we've "won" a point, whether we really have or not. Human nature, I guess. And, I'm just as guilty of enjoying this as anyone. I enjoy the debate aspect of this and what some may see as a "fued" I see as (to paraphrase Unbeliever) just flexing the intellectual muscle and giving it a work out. I never take this stuff too seriously, though.
Partial human nature, certainly. But sometimes it is serious. Sometimes you have friends or family members who are wasting their time, money, and energy in the support of silly or outright false beliefs. While it may be their right to do so, those of us who care about them can see the possible harm such things do or can do. Not to mention, I know now how much happier I am with myself and with the world having given up religious worries and belief. Things that I used to worry about and fret over (worshipping/not worshipping enough, punishments/rewards, not understanding why things are the way they are, etc) are gone. And I would love for everyone to experience that freedom.

(20-11-2010 09:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  I guess the point here is I wouldn't stress much over getting trapped on your limited ability to fully explain the science. My guess is Carl Sagan could return from the dead and answer all these questions in detail to the people you are discussing with, and they still would remain not only unconvinced but claim victory.
True - and I also recommend trying not to get too stressed over certain things. But there are those of us who have been harmed from religious upbringing. I was never all that interested in science because I had the lazy explanation that "God did it (whoever God was)." I wasted so much time on things and worries, time that I could have been using to better myself and my understanding of the universe - and the kicker is that I wasn't even that devout! Things that I thought we had no explanation for - those grand mysteries of life - many of them we do have explanations for.

Anyway, starting to ramble, and I realize this is way off topic from the original post. I just felt the need to offer a different point of view.

To the OP, try watching that lecture again (it's a great vid but probably needs a few re-watches to understand completely and commit to memory), as well as understand (and explain to your co-debater) that not everything is easy to explain, and often times there are people who study this stuff their entire lives who have a far better understanding of physics than us laymen. And nobody ever said it was supposed to be easy.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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08-12-2010, 04:38 PM
RE: A universe from nothing
TSG

Those are fair points, I guess. I was fortunate to not be raised with a strict religious upbringing. I was raised Jewish but it was more of a cultural upbringing then a religious one. My parents never told me there was no God but they also never pushed the idea that there was one.

I still think that my view is right 99% of the time but maybe that 1% makes it all worth it. I guess it depends, really, on how much time you have to dedicate to the fight.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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