A view on Religion.
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06-01-2012, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2012 11:03 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 09:59 AM)CaluMew Wrote:  I appreciate your advice, however the assumption that my target audience maybe theists, agnostics and deists is correct (I'll give you that) but atheists should be in there to. My primary goal however was to get a debate, I've got what I wanted so thank you.

If you're basing this assumption on what some theist wrote to you on The Thinking Atheist Forum you might want to reconsider your position. I'm not exactly a good example of what to expect from normal theist.

Quote:Well OMG, theists don't consider an anti-theist to be a great man well I needed someone to tell me that. Remember who the author is, I'm an atheist so I'm predictable. Why would I use theist quotes they don't say anything interesting! As for Jefferson he was secular above his deism so I could have used his quotes, like this one:

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”

Oh, and please don't give me that shit about Jefferson and the forefathers being christian because the majority were in fact deist or atheist like Benjamin Franklin.

1) No, theists don't consider him a great man nor care what they say. Just like you don't care about a random quote about false religions from St. Paul, Jesus, or Billy Graham.

2) Yes to the Jefferson quote.

3) Didn't I say our forefathers were Deists? All I said is that most Theists think they were Christians. If you throw something like that Jefferson quote at them, it will have more of an impact.

Quote:This really isn't worth saying much about considering my objective was a debate not to enlighten. Why would I try to preach, that's your game right?

No, you came to rant and rabble and insult. You are no different than Egor (our resident theist bigot) just on the other end of the spectrum.

Quote:Um i'll try to assume that, that was some sort of counter-argument and not a stroke? Next time try to gather some evidence maybe instead of "zinger".

No. Your argument was built on something that even the most unlearned atheists understand. You said that since God created everything "good" it should have stayed good.

Quote:No, not at all. I gathered this opinion all on my own, I know its pretty awesome right! In all seriousness this opinion is really a well known fact that religion is all these things. You know this because you have no other way to say that it isn't and merely criticize my appeal to the audience (which because I want a debate is rather irrelevant) or like so many of your fellow theists forget the evidence. Please your obviously not going to take me serious however don't expect me to do the same.

Opinions are now fact. Awesome.

Religion has been used to do a lot of evil, but it has also been used to do a lot of good. You're basing your opinion on the part of it that you don't like and claiming it is the whole. Which is, not true. That is a fact; not an opinion.

Quote:This has to be the most pointless thing you've said. Oh and also wrong, it is our fault we sin, haven't you read the Bible. Humans are very much so held accountable for their actions...I really shouldn't have graced this with a response.

This is what I WAS asking you.

Quote:When is the ever lasting criticism of my wording or appealing to audiences going to end. Is there ever going to be a valid point or evidence to rebuttle what I've said. Probably not!

No. Because if you make things difficult to understand, you're not doing your job as a communicator.

Quote:No you're probably right but that would mean you haven't read the bible.

lol ok. Indulge me,

Quote:You follow the ten commandments right? Well if you do they are originally Jewish, Jesus was Jesus...Most if not all of Christianity is derived from Judaism. Jewish laws/instructions are all you will ever follow as a christian.

Jesus' reaffirmed the 10 commandment in 2 rules. The Law was a foundation for His teachings.

Quote:It would help to read the title - A view on Religion - oh but Christianity is the one true religion isn't it so all others are fake...right?

Oh no, you just haven't addressed/ranted about any other religion except Christianity.

Quote:Reinforces that what I've said is correct. I know, arrogant. But you have nothing to say meaning you either cannot prove me wrong or that you know i'm right yet pride or public embarrassment holds you back.

No, it's just honestly so dumb it's not worth responding to. You remind so much of Egor.

Quote:WOW! I'm surprised, have you really...It seems by what you have said that...hang on have you really read it? Let me recommend the King James Bible.

No. You're right. Got me. Haven't read it. What's a King James Bible? Is it a new translation?

Quote:You really are kept in the dark. You don't know your own religious history? SHOCKING! But trust me your not the only one.

No, no. Really. Explain my religious history to me. Since I haven't read the Bible nor studied it.

Quote:What, can't handle the truth?

I'll say it again. Godwin's Law. rofl

Quote:Yeesssss, there's so many versions these days: Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Protestantism etc...three of hundreds so who really cares.

Ahhh yeah, I forgot. In your world, opinions trump facts. My mistake.

Quote:That would be you.

Again, don't base anything on me.

Quote:you really think if I wanted theists reading this I post it on a theist site and not one which is titled "TheThinkingAtheist".

Ahhh, so you were looking for a circle jerk then. Cool. Disregard everything I said.


(06-01-2012 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-01-2012 12:06 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:Genesis 1:31 - “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”

Oooooh boy. There are A LOT better verses you could misconstrue than this one. Okay, I'll help you out here. If you are going to nit-pick words in the Bible, then you had better reference the original Hebrew/Greek to make sure your zinger can actually zing. Any competent theist would have a field day with this. Here is the word's definition that you're nit-picking. Basically, this verse is saying that what He had made pleased Him... moving on.

KC, the masses don't read anything but the Bible in front of them. They don't go hunting down the Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew, the supporting texts, or anything of the sort. They believe what is written in their own language, in their own Bible, as the Word according to their own minister.

People understand the Bible in that context. Your defense of some interpretation based on what some original text may or may not have said is largely irrelevant to anyone but theologians and Bible translators.

Yeah, I know; however, if you're going to engage a theist with theology you need to be able to argue theology.

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06-01-2012, 12:53 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
Quote:If you're basing this assumption on what some theist wrote to you on The Thinking Atheist Forum you might want to reconsider your position. I'm not exactly a good example of what to expect from normal theist.

Oh, okay, explain how abnormal you are as a theist then. You attempt to deconstruct my argument by giving me points on my audience appeal and presentation (irrelevant considering you know my points and answered them). You disregard what I say because you think that I am wrong but present no evidence to say otherwise.

Quote:1) No, theists don't consider him a great man nor care what they say. Just like you don't care about a random quote about false religions from St. Paul, Jesus, or Billy Graham.

It was sarcasm but nevermind. St. Paul grew up in a Jewish home, he persecuted Christians if i'm not mistaken. On the road to Damascus he sees a blinding light and hears a voice saying 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' The voice goes on to add: 'I am Jesus'. Jesus was the king of the Jews, so in the religious stories you can't do right from doing wrong it would seem. There is no evidence to support the existence of Jesus and no the Bible is not evidence. Billy Graham: Evangelical errr.

Quote:2) Yes to the Jefferson quote.

3) Didn't I say our forefathers were Deists? All I said is that most Theists think they were Christians. If you throw something like that Jefferson quote at them, it will have more of an impact.

The Hitchens quote wasn't meant to course impact it was there as a introduction. Dawkins was however, because his quote is true. The universe is not a thinking sentient race like us and so feels no emotion. It owes us nothing.

Quote:No, you came to rant and rabble and insult. You are no different than Egor (our resident theist bigot) just on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't know this Egor and I rant not necessarily rabble, what I say is true and if it insults then you hold your beliefs as yourself. I don't mean to insult you only to convey truth. Also if you do get offended (Possibly ignoring your subtitle) here is this:

"It's now very common to hear people say i'm rather offended by that as if it gives them certain rights, it's actually nothing more....it's simply a whine, it's no more than a whine i find that offensive it has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase i'm offended by that WELL SO FUCKING WHAT"

Quote:No. Your argument was built on something that even the most unlearned atheists understand. You said that since God created everything "good" it should have stayed good.

Exactly! If an omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipresent God who is perfect cannot create a place that remains so then he is not all those things or that the universe isn't created but developed and so not perfect. You can't have both sides of your bread buttered, your God is either all powerful, all knowing and all loving. Meaning he can do anything being all powerful, know anything being all knowing or care and guide everyone of his creations being all loving. However the very existence of suffering contradicts...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

Quote:Opinions are now fact. Awesome.

Please...prove to me that it isn't and I will re-frame from holding it.

Quote:Religion has been used to do a lot of evil, but it has also been used to do a lot of good. You're basing your opinion on the part of it that you don't like and claiming it is the whole. Which is, not true. That is a fact; not an opinion.

Oh how drole....

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Religion (especially) Christianity claims that it is the one universal religion. That it is a force for good in the world and is the one way in which to extinguish suffering. However if religion has brought more bad than good what is the point of it? Trust me it's brought more bad than good!

Quote:No. Because if you make things difficult to understand, you're not doing your job as a communicator.

It's really not that difficult...you have missed points and merely targeted audience appeal to fill the gap.

Quote:lol ok. Indulge me,

"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate." (Gen3:6)

It would seem that Eve ate first and tempted her husband, no?

"And Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled, fell into transgression." (1Tim2:14)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to every person, because everyone sinned." (Rom5:12)

And this is evidence enough of how unfair and unjust God can be. How he punishes every man and woman for the mistakes of their ancestors.

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," (Ac17:30)

I rest my case.

Quote:Jesus' reaffirmed the 10 commandment in 2 rules. The Law was a foundation for His teachings.

Essentially copied like the Buddha did with Dharma and meditation. Nothing new but I still see the Ten commandments in Christian schools in Religious Studies everywhere. Again no evidence for Jesus.

Quote:Oh no, you just haven't addressed/ranted about any other religion except Christianity.

They are all derived from the same. All copied from the original Jewish doctrine.

Quote:No, it's just honestly so dumb it's not worth responding to. You remind so much of Egor.

It's rather logical to see that if you claim to be christian and don't go to church every Sunday, pay a tithe. Stone homosexuals "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB). If you do not do what your own doctrine dictates you to do, then really your not a christian and have just labelled yourself one.

Quote:No, no. Really. Explain my religious history to me. Since I haven't read the Bible nor studied it.

Well simply...Christianity is copied from Judaism. Look it up you will find it.

Quote:I'll say it again. Godwin's Law. rofl

Hitler was brought up Christian, first official treaty he signed was with the Catholic church to allow them free reign over German schools. On the belt of every German soldier you had 'Got mint uns' in God we Trust! rofl

Quote:Ahhh yeah, I forgot. In your world, opinions trump facts. My mistake.

and in yours you hold scripture and myth above facts?

Quote:Ahhh, so you were looking for a circle jerk then. Cool. Disregard everything I said.

I don't disregard it as much as I feel it weighs nothing in an argument...for instance comments on my audience appeal or Godwin's law. You find it funny or you act like it's funny or pointless but now i'm actually bringing in the topic of Hitler's regime. He was a Christian...read mien Kampf or consult WW2 German History.

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
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06-01-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
KC, you're absolutely right. How is it that the day Egor leaves this guy comes in? Maybe he's Egor's atheist twin brother?

James 1:27
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

"Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist." C.S. Lewis
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06-01-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:08 PM)Sharks9 Wrote:  KC, you're absolutely right. How is it that the day Egor leaves this guy comes in? Maybe he's Egor's atheist twin brother?

However there is one main and possible most important difference between me and Egor. I'm not deluded and hold to facts. Wink

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
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06-01-2012, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2012 01:16 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: A view on Religion.
This is starting to become a theological debate vs someone who doesn't believe in theology. I honestly don't have the fortitude to start another one of these.

Look, the point is if you want to appeal to multiple audiences, don't lace your words with acid and hate. Your hate may be justified, but that doesn't mean that people are going to read it if you sound like a ranting bigot.

Take it or leave it. It's free advice.

PS - I am a unique theist in the fact that I continually throw myself in the den with hungry baby-eating atheists. My patience, understanding, and unoffendability are not unique; however, they are rare amongst my fellow theists. I'm here to simply offer a simple and open look into the theist opinion and thought process.
(06-01-2012 01:08 PM)Sharks9 Wrote:  KC, you're absolutely right. How is it that the day Egor leaves this guy comes in? Maybe he's Egor's atheist twin brother?

Yeah, I found this awfully strange.

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06-01-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is starting to become a theological debate vs someone who doesn't believe in theology. I honestly don't have the fortitude to start another one of these.

Look, the point is if you want to appeal to multiple audiences, don't lace your words with acid and hate. Your hate may be justified, but that doesn't mean that people are going to read it if you sound like a ranting bigot.

Take it or leave it. It's free advice.

PS - I am a unique theist in the fact that I continually throw myself in the den with hungry baby-eating atheists. My patience, understanding, and unoffendability are not unique; however, they are rare amongst my fellow theists. I'm here to simply offer a simple and open look into the theist opinion and thought process.
(06-01-2012 01:08 PM)Sharks9 Wrote:  KC, you're absolutely right. How is it that the day Egor leaves this guy comes in? Maybe he's Egor's atheist twin brother?

Yeah, I found this awfully strange.

Thank you for your time (this is no mock) Wink

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
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06-01-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:12 PM)CaluMew Wrote:  
(06-01-2012 01:08 PM)Sharks9 Wrote:  KC, you're absolutely right. How is it that the day Egor leaves this guy comes in? Maybe he's Egor's atheist twin brother?

However there is one main and possible most important difference between me and Egor. I'm not deluded and hold to facts. Wink

Most of what you've written in this thread are just your beliefs that you're saying are facts.

James 1:27
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world"

"Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist." C.S. Lewis
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06-01-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
Quote:Most of what you've written in this thread are just your beliefs that you're saying are facts.

Not really, you just read them and know they hurt your religion and so assume they are my opinion but have no intention of researching what I have said. I advice you to go do that. Yes some parts are my opinion but they are backed up with evidence and facts.

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
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06-01-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is starting to become a theological debate vs someone who doesn't believe in theology. I honestly don't have the fortitude to start another one of these.

Well, yeah. As an atheist, I view theology as a subject with no substance; an empty cassock. There's no 'there' there.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-01-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: A view on Religion.
(06-01-2012 01:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-01-2012 01:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This is starting to become a theological debate vs someone who doesn't believe in theology. I honestly don't have the fortitude to start another one of these.

Well, yeah. As an atheist, I view theology as a subject with no substance; an empty cassock. There's no 'there' there.

And, that's fine, if you don't try and argue from a theological standpoint.

I find it funny that atheists won't accept the Bible as a means of authority when debating a theists but will use it to counter against a theist but refuse to engage in a theological discussion about the aforementioned point.

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