AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
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24-10-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 08:17 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Are you staying sober?

I've had a couple of binges since my dad died in June but not long ones thankfully so on the whole I'm staying sober my meds help alot which is good.How about you ?
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24-10-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 08:13 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 06:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  Have you had treatment for alcoholism? Do you get peer support?
I did rehab twice and AA for years until I became atheist I tried to keep it up but the woo and cult like doctrines both in meetings and the big book of AA got too much for me to stomach.

I was an atheist when I got sober and I got sober in AA. Just find (or start) meetings with low religiosity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(23-10-2016 02:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 01:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  If you were treating an alcoholic you should know what the latest developments are. You can't get away from it. If a patient comes to you and asks you what the latest developments are in treatment of alcoholism you should know or ask a specialist.

Why should they? My doc referred me to a shrink.

Because negligence laws and rules of professional conduct require doctors to keep up with medical advances. If Reckitt Benkiser release this as a consumer product in a few years then anyone who finds out about it, which they will because it will be advertised will realize that this drug has been around for years. It's not an excuse to claim ignorance if your job is to know what you are doing. If they refer you to a specialist, the specialist has a duty to be up to date in his understanding of medical practice.
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24-10-2016, 11:25 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 10:46 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 02:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why should they? My doc referred me to a shrink.

Because negligence laws and rules of professional conduct require doctors to keep up with medical advances. If Reckitt Benkiser release this as a consumer product in a few years then anyone who finds out about it, which they will because it will be advertised will realize that this drug has been around for years. It's not an excuse to claim ignorance if your job is to know what you are doing. If they refer you to a specialist, the specialist has a duty to be up to date in his understanding of medical practice.

You think I got grounds for a civil suit?

#sigh
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24-10-2016, 11:26 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 08:13 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I did rehab twice and AA for years until I became atheist I tried to keep it up but the woo and cult like doctrines both in meetings and the big book of AA got too much for me to stomach.

I was an atheist when I got sober and I got sober in AA. Just find (or start) meetings with low religiosity.
The nearest agnostic AA meetings are in London which is a bit to far away, starting one is a possibility I hadn't considered until you mentioned it, that is potentially doable cheers for that Chas, I didn't know you were a fellow sufferer of this affliction how long have you been sober if I might ask ?
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24-10-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 11:26 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 09:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  I was an atheist when I got sober and I got sober in AA. Just find (or start) meetings with low religiosity.
The nearest agnostic AA meetings are in London which is a bit to far away, starting one is a possibility I hadn't considered until you mentioned it, that is potentially doable cheers for that Chas, I didn't know you were a fellow sufferer of this affliction how long have you been sober if I might ask ?

25 years, 1 week, and 5 days - but who's counting? Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-10-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 11:26 AM)adey67 Wrote:  The nearest agnostic AA meetings are in London which is a bit to far away, starting one is a possibility I hadn't considered until you mentioned it, that is potentially doable cheers for that Chas, I didn't know you were a fellow sufferer of this affliction how long have you been sober if I might ask ?

25 years, 1 week, and 5 days - but who's counting? Big Grin

You had a recent anniversary. Congrats! Thumbsup
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25-10-2016, 05:02 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 11:25 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 10:46 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Because negligence laws and rules of professional conduct require doctors to keep up with medical advances. If Reckitt Benkiser release this as a consumer product in a few years then anyone who finds out about it, which they will because it will be advertised will realize that this drug has been around for years. It's not an excuse to claim ignorance if your job is to know what you are doing. If they refer you to a specialist, the specialist has a duty to be up to date in his understanding of medical practice.

You think I got grounds for a civil suit?

The studies on Baclofen show that it works for about 60% of people who take it. The studies involve people with low level alcoholism, such that they are able to engage in self-administration of the drug at home. The trials exclude those with other diagnoses such as bipolar. You can see the criteria on the Aube site if you look at the slides in the presentation of Renaud de Beaurepaire. If you read through the pages on Dr. Amanda Staffords page you will see a reference to Dr. Lingford-Hughes who makes the point that the drug works better in people with more serious alcoholism. This may be because the side effects for someone who is a relatively high functioning alcoholic are worse than the alcoholism.

If you found a doctor who was able to take you through a successful treatment program on baclofen, because he had taken the time to study the guidance which is out there, you might ask yourself why your previous doctor and shrink had got this wrong. Obviously, if you are someone who, for some reason, does not respond to baclofen at all then you would not have a claim. But, suppose you went onto the Sinclair Method which is now using Nalmafene, which is licensed in the UK and Europe, and you recovered. Then you might ask your doctor why he hadn't told you about this, because this treatment is on the UK doctors' internet forum.

The point is that when a drug become better known, and your own doctor has overlooked it for several years, for no good reason, but you discover it does work if prescribed properly, then I see no reason why you wouldn't ask why your own doctor hadn't done a better job. If his answer was that he didn't know about this treatment, that is becoming a more difficult position to justify and if he says he isn't a specialist, then he should have sent you to a specialist who can at least advise you properly rather than imposing his own attitude on you based on preconceptions and ignorance.

Suppose a cancer drug came out now and doctors failed to pick up on it and you became very ill for a few years so the treatment was much worse than it would have been had your doctor known about the treatment. This sort of argument has been raised in a case in England called Bolitho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolitho_v_...Hackney_HA

Essentially, that case says it is not ok for doctors to say "that's what everybody else does right now". It's a patient's right to treatment and to be advised properly. The court, under Bolitho, has to examine lacunae in practice and determine whether there is a justification for them.

An example of this is that until 1982 ulcers were considered to be caused by stress but researchers discovered that it was caused by a bacteria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall

So, think about it. If you find a doctor somewhere who doesn't know this, and fails to give you an anti-biotic, what do you say about his competence and what do you do about the fact that you have suffered through an unnecessary illness?
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25-10-2016, 06:17 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-10-2016 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 11:26 AM)adey67 Wrote:  The nearest agnostic AA meetings are in London which is a bit to far away, starting one is a possibility I hadn't considered until you mentioned it, that is potentially doable cheers for that Chas, I didn't know you were a fellow sufferer of this affliction how long have you been sober if I might ask ?

25 years, 1 week, and 5 days - but who's counting? Big Grin

My heartfelt congratulations and admiration for your 25th anniversary Bowing
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25-10-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(25-10-2016 06:17 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(24-10-2016 07:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  25 years, 1 week, and 5 days - but who's counting? Big Grin

My heartfelt congratulations and admiration for your 25th anniversary Bowing

I posted earlier that although I had been rather looking forward to it, the actual day passed without me even noticing. Facepalm

Sobriety has become so normal that I didn't remember until the next day, and I only noted the date because the 13th was my brother's birthday.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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