AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
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24-07-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-07-2016 02:14 PM)TheQueenOfFrogs Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 11:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Getting out of detox tomorrow and they're trying to convince me to go into an outpatient program. It's not AA and it's secular but it is not free but my insurance covers it. I said "I got this big bottle of anabuse at home I think I'm gonna try first." Anyone have any expereince with anabuse?

Whether you pick outpatient rehab or antabuse should depend upon which type of reinforcement works best for you: positive or negative. I did the outpatient rehab thing (this was in the '90s, so I don't know if it's any better or worse now), but it seemed to work pretty well. That's just me, though - the positive, motivational approach was the charm. Negative reinforcement always makes me more obstreperous and contrary.

Yeah, that.

Recovering requires self-applied brainwashing.
Detox, after-care, AA or some other program will help to re-wire your brain.

And that is what addicts need to do - they got to get their minds right.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
It's the difference between treating the symptoms and treating the cause.
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25-07-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
The people at AA are really nice but it's also fucking creepy. They all use the same jargonistic cliches. They think this book written 60 years ago has supernatural correctness. They think they offer the only path to sobriety. They're fucking Jesusy as all fucking hell. They tell you you're insane so don't think. And they want more than sobriety. For many of them, allegiance to their religion and yes it is that, supersedes sobriety. If you stop drinking, go to meetings, but don't follow their religion they call you a 'dry drunk'. That's the stupidest fucking expression I ever heard. I'm still going though because I hate alcohol so much. Fuck their steps and higher power and their poorly written shitty little AA Bible. Fuck their prayers. Fuck their lingo. I'm still going to the meetings. I do think it helps. And I understand most people need a system or a program, it could probably be this or that, and people seem to actually believe prayer makes a difference. Here's the plan: Don't Drink.
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25-07-2016, 07:29 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
You have some strong feelings about AA. After going through treatment in the fall of 1987, I never continued my “journey” by going to AA. I just left the whole business. However, my wife has been a loyal member of Al-Anon since 1985.

I go to most of her meetings and have given talks at two of them (a slightly different perspective from the former drunk, which many appreciated). Some active AA members describe Al-Anon as graduate school, so you might want to go to all the Al-Anon meetings you can find. You can then avoid all the rehashing of drinking histories and the Big Book. You can just sit and listen to how our past drinking, and the current drinking of others, affects family and close friends.

My wife’s meeting decided to replace the end-of-meeting Lord’s Prayer with a repeat of the start-of-meeting Serenity Prayer, likely to appease one or two whining atheists. I have no problem with the Lord’s Prayer and actually miss it. My view is that if you do not like it, leave.

And Al-Anon actually says to take what you like and leave the rest. It is good enough for me. Try to make it good enough for you.
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25-07-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
It's just my nature to be critical of everything.

I'm still going to go to meetings.

I don't whine or bash their faith. It's hard for me but I'm just trying to figure out how to make it work for me. Basically, because there's nothing else out there I have access to and I've been drinking myself to death.
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25-07-2016, 10:33 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(25-07-2016 05:18 AM)ImFred Wrote:  The people at AA are really nice but it's also fucking creepy. They all use the same jargonistic cliches. They think this book written 60 years ago has supernatural correctness. They think they offer the only path to sobriety. They're fucking Jesusy as all fucking hell. They tell you you're insane so don't think. And they want more than sobriety. For many of them, allegiance to their religion and yes it is that, supersedes sobriety. If you stop drinking, go to meetings, but don't follow their religion they call you a 'dry drunk'. That's the stupidest fucking expression I ever heard. I'm still going though because I hate alcohol so much. Fuck their steps and higher power and their poorly written shitty little AA Bible. Fuck their prayers. Fuck their lingo. I'm still going to the meetings. I do think it helps. And I understand most people need a system or a program, it could probably be this or that, and people seem to actually believe prayer makes a difference. Here's the plan: Don't Drink.

For me, "dry drunk" isn't about whether you ascribe to faith, but whether you're addressing the underlying issues which make you think intoxication is a rational response to reality.

Some AA groups emphasize religion; others not so much.

There are secular programs and approaches available. If you want some resources, PM me.
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25-07-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
They have to be free.
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25-07-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(24-07-2016 01:59 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(21-07-2016 06:05 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  AA actually has about the same rate of recovery as does "spontaneous recovery".

About 5% of alcoholics just recover spontaneously each year with no therapy of any kind.

The recovery rate for AA is about 5% although, in fact, it is impossible to say what it is with any accuracy because AA keeps no statistics at all.

There are anecdotal reports of recovery through AA attendance and exertion of willpower but the failure rate of AA is staggeringly high and it's method isn't based on any science. There are now some useful medications being used to help with alcoholism.

Here is a site outlining the 1930's thinking behind AA: http://www.orange-papers.org/

The thing is, AA is about emotional support. Keeping statistics on that is pretty dicey.

Take what you can use, and leave the rest, y'know?

Far be it for me to tell anyone else how to address their own bugbears. If AA does someone some good, I'm cool with that.

The medical view is shifting towards a construction of alcoholism as an anxiety disorder. Any support is useful and helps but AA is an old philosophy, and not science. I think it is important not to lose site of the fact that this is an illness of an organic nature and not get sucked into something which is quasi-religious and which can push people away from a rational examination of what alcoholism really is.

It's early days in this. Brain scanning is quite new and its use in addiction even newer. It's a hard nut to crack and there is a huge public animus against anyone suggesting there are medical options. Which I find incomprehensible. If one is pouring large amounts of a toxic substance into one's brain, daily, and can't stop, then to me that's a neurological issue. Neurological examination is the starting point for me. Then, when the cause and effects of alcohol overconsumption are illucidated and some medical treatment put into place which allows the addict to get out of bed and walk, then there is a place for counselling etc and there is always a need for support which is actually supportive and non-judgmental.
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25-07-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
(25-07-2016 11:34 AM)ImFred Wrote:  They have to be free.

Here's a few:

http://www.sossobriety.org/about-us.html

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://lifering.org/new-to-lifering/
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25-07-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: AA - Atheists and Alcoholism
The big money is going with baclofen and its new derivative Arbaclofen.

Reckitt Benckiser is the largest consumer provider of health care consumer products including products like Nurofen. They were the suppliers to the UK government's drug diversion program for many years and to programs in the US which used their patented drug, Subudone, or Subutek, as it is called in the UK. In the UK, they own Boots the Chemist so a trip to the police station or court with a drug charge usually resulted in prescription and dispensing of the drug in the pharmacy under supervision of the pharmacist. That was for heroin addiction.

Subudone became a generic a few years back and Reckitt's in the US started engaging in anti-generic activities and were raided by the FDA and prosecuted.

Since then they paid Xenoport £20 million for the patent rights to Arbaclofen and have applied to the US government for a license for all indications. The trials are underway and should be completed by 2020.

Arbaclofen is the right side of the baclofen molecule. By cutting the molecule in half, it reduces side effects, one of the problems associated with baclofen. Arbaclofen converts to baclofen in the system and is an agonist of the Gaba B receptor. Gaba b dysphoria has been implicated in anxiety craving of alcohol and other drugs, making baclofen a candidate as poly drug "cure".

Baclofen is now being used by many tens of thousands of people around the world. It works by suppressing alcoholic and addictive craving. A person taking it literally doesn't want to drink and the drug can stop an alcoholic on a bottle a day of spirits binge from drinking almost immediately. It is that revolutionary. However, the drug needs monitoring and you can't take someone off booze that quickly without DTS and other issues arising out of drying out suddenly.

Anyway, it's all interesting stuff. The science is now taking off and there is an exponential growth in the use of the drug so in a few years there will probably be far wider knowledge and understanding of the drug and a lot less fuddled thinking on the subject of addiction and alcoholism.

http://investor.xenoport.com/releasedeta...eid=848226
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