ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
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31-10-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(31-10-2014 05:08 PM)corfou73 Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 04:10 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  They don't say that other people can't use reason or logic, but that only the Christian worldview can account for them. They see all other worldviews as ultimately struggling fruitlessly to justify themselves, but they are able to figure things out, do science, etc, so long as they "borrow from the Christian worldview."

That's not what I understand.

Quote from Wikipedia:
Quote:Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presupposit...pologetics

I have difficulties seeing how this could leed to the acceptance of *any* scientific claim.

It is correct that they say that "apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience." Their contention is that everyone, including atheists, make presuppositions, but only Christians can provide a rational ground for those presuppositions.

So, for example, they presuppose the existence of God, so they get to believe that God grounds logic, so they can use logic. They accuse us of presupposing logic, so we can use logic, but since we don't presuppose a God to ground logic, we're "borrowing" logic from them.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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01-11-2014, 06:15 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  It is correct that they say that "apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience." Their contention is that everyone, including atheists, make presuppositions, but only Christians can provide a rational ground for those presuppositions.
So, for example, they presuppose the existence of God, so they get to believe that God grounds logic, so they can use logic. They accuse us of presupposing logic, so we can use logic, but since we don't presuppose a God to ground logic, we're "borrowing" logic from them.
Doesn't that ground logic *in general*? Even when used by someone who hasn't received divine revelation?
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01-11-2014, 06:23 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(31-10-2014 12:52 PM)corfou73 Wrote:  Anyway, OddGamer, are your debates still visible on youtube ?

Wrong kind of debate. Tongue Theists post videos, I leave comments. I have about 6 videos total on YT.

My best comment work (about a theist) is here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfkdqIL6lY0
(Hoping thay goes through, I'm on cell right now.)
My comment starts 'This is a very densely packed video of wrong."
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01-11-2014, 06:33 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 06:15 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  It is correct that they say that "apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience." Their contention is that everyone, including atheists, make presuppositions, but only Christians can provide a rational ground for those presuppositions.
So, for example, they presuppose the existence of God, so they get to believe that God grounds logic, so they can use logic. They accuse us of presupposing logic, so we can use logic, but since we don't presuppose a God to ground logic, we're "borrowing" logic from them.
Doesn't that ground logic *in general*? Even when used by someone who hasn't received divine revelation?

I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist without asserting something from their particular holy text. It seems like, once again; this god is a colossal screw up, the very conceptual logic this god created and reveals can be used to disprove it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-11-2014, 06:56 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 06:23 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  My best comment work (about a theist) is here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfkdqIL6lY0
Wow, great job! And thanks for the random Sierpinski, hadn't seen it built like that before!
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01-11-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
I'm a little confused...
(01-11-2014 06:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist without asserting something from their particular holy text.
What text? Why would you want to disprove god?
Quote:It seems like, once again; this god is a colossal screw up, the very conceptual logic this god created and reveals can be used to disprove it.
What makes what you call "conceptual" logic different from every-day-logic? Seems to me the mechanism are the same.
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01-11-2014, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2014 08:01 AM by OddGamer.)
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 06:56 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  
(01-11-2014 06:23 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  My best comment work (about a theist) is here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfkdqIL6lY0
Wow, great job! And thanks for the random Sierpinski, hadn't seen it built like that before!
Thanks. Smile

I learned about the triangle that way from a science show (which didn't name the thing so I had to search for ages to find it). It's my go-to example for 'chaos + minimal rules = order'. My other favorite along the same line is Langton's Ant (you can find a web-based one here: http://rossscrivener.co.uk/blog/langtons...javascript ) for demonstrating emergence of structured outcomes from simplistic rules (the ant follows only two rules, but ends up building a road). Useful for describing consciousness and evolution.
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01-11-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 07:00 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  I'm a little confused...
(01-11-2014 06:33 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist without asserting something from their particular holy text.
What text? Why would you want to disprove god?
Quote:It seems like, once again; this god is a colossal screw up, the very conceptual logic this god created and reveals can be used to disprove it.
What makes what you call "conceptual" logic different from every-day-logic? Seems to me the mechanism are the same.

Ugh, it's early in the morning and I phrased that poorly. Let me rephrase:
I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist based on a logical framework created by a god.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-11-2014, 08:50 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
since my avatar is named ace it feels weird replying here
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01-11-2014, 08:54 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 06:15 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 06:27 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  It is correct that they say that "apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience." Their contention is that everyone, including atheists, make presuppositions, but only Christians can provide a rational ground for those presuppositions.
So, for example, they presuppose the existence of God, so they get to believe that God grounds logic, so they can use logic. They accuse us of presupposing logic, so we can use logic, but since we don't presuppose a God to ground logic, we're "borrowing" logic from them.
Doesn't that ground logic *in general*? Even when used by someone who hasn't received divine revelation?

In their view, we can use logic, but we can never be absolutely sure of its conclusions. They can, since the "know" that logic is grounded in the thinking of a tri-omni Creator.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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