ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
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01-11-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 07:38 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(01-11-2014 07:00 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  I'm a little confused...
What text? Why would you want to disprove god?
What makes what you call "conceptual" logic different from every-day-logic? Seems to me the mechanism are the same.

Ugh, it's early in the morning and I phrased that poorly. Let me rephrase:
I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist based on a logical framework created by a god.

In their view, a non-believer cannot logically deduce that God does not exist because that would violate the Law of Non-contradiction. Non-believers already "know" that God exists (but we deny it because of our depravity), and we need to ground logic in God's thinking (otherwise our worldviews would be "viciously circular"), so disproving God using logic would be like using logic to disprove logic.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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01-11-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 07:38 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Ugh, it's early in the morning and I phrased that poorly. Let me rephrase:
I have yet to see any explanation as to why those that are not believers can logically deduce that god does not exist based on a logical framework created by a god.

That's an easy one!

We all know God exists; we're just lying about our Atheism. Facepalm

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

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01-11-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
To me, it feels like you're giving the presups added credibility by building arguments specifically to counter their nonsense.
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01-11-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(01-11-2014 11:01 AM)pablo Wrote:  To me, it feels like you're giving the presups added credibility by building arguments specifically to counter their nonsense.

The idea of divine revelation is to me the most scandalous idea to be presented by religions. Up to now, it seemed to me that it was also problematic for most of the beleivers that I have met or that I saw debate, though every one has a different take on how to deal with it.

Besides, the fact that many beleivers often react vividly when their god claims are questioned is another clue: why feel disrespected or threatened when your worldview is put to debate, if this worldview is consistent?

I've never been upset by these reactions. The fact that faith is not truth, and that many are, in one way or another, aware of that, leaves open a door that can lead to an honest discussion.

What presuppositional apologetics does, by conflating truth and faith *axiomatically*, is to slam that door, lock it up and throw away the key. If this viewpoint was to spread more widely, I fear it could be politically and socially problematic.
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02-11-2014, 06:04 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
Follow-up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omdkrD5WB4k

The Unconventional Pastor to Erci Hovind

"You're being consistent with the way you're defining knowledge and yet you're being inconsistent with the way you're using it."

"God can reveal things to you so that you *see* them. But that you understand them, sorry, you can't understand anything that is beyond your capacity to understand it [...] I don't care who shows it to you, be it God or anybody else."
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03-11-2014, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2014 09:50 AM by TreeSapNest.)
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(31-10-2014 03:45 PM)corfou73 Wrote:  I'd say it depends on your objective: showing the audience the utter stupidity of the presupposition or entering into dialogue with the presup. In general, I'm more into the second option. Finding a common ground, a common understanding. Precisely what a non shared presupposition cannot allow.

I don't see any fault in looking for more arguments, but common experience is common ground. One you, the presup, and the audience can identify and agree with. You force the presup into denying the common experience that our reasoning is necessarily being tested and confirmed every day.
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04-11-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(31-10-2014 01:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Since presuppositions are legit in the apologist's logic, let's accept it and state our own "presupposition" : *nothing* can be known for sure.

Are you quite sure of your presupposition here?

My question was is the writer sure of their presupposition that nothing can be known with certainty? That is are they absolutely sure they can know nothing for sure?

Presuppositional apologetics are not my bag/fave. But since I believe only born again Christians have a full relationship with God, I would say that all born again start out without presuppositions about this relationship. Indeed, I've never heard a Christian testimony like "I knew God was there so when Jesus was presented I accepted Him straightaway." Quite the opposite, in fact. That is why so many atheists have become zealous Christian apologists.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-11-2014, 02:56 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(04-11-2014 02:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Presuppositional apologetics are not my bag/fave. But since I believe only born again Christians have a full relationship with God, I would say that all born again start out without presuppositions about this relationship. Indeed, I've never heard a Christian testimony like "I knew God was there so when Jesus was presented I accepted Him straightaway." Quite the opposite, in fact. That is why so many atheists have become zealous Christian apologists.

How many? Please provide some evidence for your assertion, because I think it is bullshit.

Unless, of course, you mean everyone starts life as an atheist. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-11-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 02:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Presuppositional apologetics are not my bag/fave. But since I believe only born again Christians have a full relationship with God, I would say that all born again start out without presuppositions about this relationship. Indeed, I've never heard a Christian testimony like "I knew God was there so when Jesus was presented I accepted Him straightaway." Quite the opposite, in fact. That is why so many atheists have become zealous Christian apologists.

How many? Please provide some evidence for your assertion, because I think it is bullshit.

Unless, of course, you mean everyone starts life as an atheist. Drinking Beverage

I mean that having heard hundreds of salvation testimonies in person or over Internet/radio/TV from born agains, not a single one said, "Life is great, all is well. Oops, I'm missing something, I need to trust Jesus." On the contrary, every born again's testimony is that they heard the gospel, doubted, than pondered.

John 3:19 - This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 1:5 - The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

People run from the light of God like insects exposed under an overhang. In my own instance, I know I wasn't guilty of confirmatory biases because I grew up as a nonChristian and reading the Bible for myself as an adult, was converted only after great skepticism and reluctance. I embarked on months of critical study before converting.

I can see where people might say, by the way, that all start life as atheists. After all, the universal nature of man is be born as sinners who are in the dark on many things about God. That there is a "hole in the heart" that draws people to explore the numinous or philosophical has been confirmed by science, a "god gene" if you will.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-11-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(06-11-2014 10:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  How many? Please provide some evidence for your assertion, because I think it is bullshit.

Unless, of course, you mean everyone starts life as an atheist. Drinking Beverage

I mean that having heard hundreds of salvation testimonies in person or over Internet/radio/TV from born agains, not a single one said, "Life is great, all is well. Oops, I'm missing something, I need to trust Jesus." On the contrary, every born again's testimony is that they heard the gospel, doubted, than pondered.

And I have heard others who were in terrible trouble or pain and were persuaded that they needed religion.

Quote:John 3:19 - This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 1:5 - The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

People run from the light of God like insects exposed under an overhang.

I really hate these passive-aggressive statements. Fuck you.

Quote: In my own instance, I know I wasn't guilty of confirmatory biases because I grew up as a nonChristian and reading the Bible for myself as an adult, was converted only after great skepticism and reluctance. I embarked on months of critical study before converting.

You have a very different understanding of 'critical' than I do.

Quote:I can see where people might say, by the way, that all start life as atheists. After all, the universal nature of man is be born as sinners who are in the dark on many things about God. That there is a "hole in the heart" that draws people to explore the numinous or philosophical has been confirmed by science, a "god gene" if you will.

No, I won't. There isn't anything at all like a 'god gene' - that's preposterous. Or is that simply a disingenuous reading of actual science?

What we do have is an evolved set of mind tools that seek meaning and intentionality. Actual critical thinking allows us to keep those from misfiring and finding gods where there is no evidence for any.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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