ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
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17-11-2014, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2014 11:08 AM by TreeSapNest.)
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(16-11-2014 01:51 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Now you see what you have to do? You have to reduce your worldview to absurdity.
Na. I can test my reasoning. I'll reason that because I just turned off the stove and because it takes time for heat to dissipate, that the stove is still hot. And sure enough, when I place my hand near the stove I can feel the heat radiating from it. It is still hot, just as I reasoned. I can trust my reasoning: No God necessary. :-)

Absurd seems to be the thought that we need a god in order to both reason and to trust that reasoning.
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17-11-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(17-11-2014 10:00 AM)TreeSapNest Wrote:  
(16-11-2014 01:51 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Now you see what you have to do? You have to reduce your worldview to absurdity.
Na. I can test my reasoning. I'll reason that because I just turned off the stove and because it takes time for heat to dissipate, that the stove is still hot. And sure enough, when I place my hand near the stove I can feel the heat radiating from it. It is still hot, just as I reasoned. I can trust my reasoning: No God necessary. :-)

Absurd seems to be the thought that we need a god in order to both reason and to trust that reasoning.

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17-11-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(16-11-2014 01:51 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 08:56 AM)corfou73 Wrote:  I've recently come across this video proposing, as the title says, a rebuttal to presup apologetics :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG63IEfAz2Y

Very short summary: to counter the claim of a possible absolute knowledge provided by divine revelation, affirm the possibility that reality is a computer simulation and that the computer is feeding the apologist with incorrect data that leads him to beleive that he *knows*.

I guess that this argument is OK in front of an audience of normally resonable persons, but then, do they have to be convinced anyway ? I can also imagine that people who already have a germ of doubt could be led to doubt more. But I cannot imagine a *convinced* presuppositionalist to fall for that, for two main reasons :
  1. A computer simulation could well be the modality of creation of this universe : a supernatural being with a supernatural computer creating a natural universe over which he has all power.
  2. It is an *argument*. It uses *reason*, the same reason that apologist denies to his opponent, and to himself if it wasn't for the divine revelation.

Basically, the presuppositional position is nothing more than uttering "Whatever!" again and again.

Then how to counter it ?

I'd like to propose a few strategies, none of which use a correctly formulated argument per se. They have in common that they assume the presupposition and let it develop itself to a practical impossibility or uselessness.
  1. You talkin' to me ?
    - When we debate one with another, do we use our reason to make sense of, and assess, eachother's statement ?
    Option 1
    - We sure do!
    - Then if my reason is flawed, how can I be sure that what I understand you are saying is actually what you are saying?
    Option 2
    - No (+ explanation).
    - You just made a statement about reality that I can not assess due to my reasoning being flawed.
    Conclusion
    Why did you want to debate anyway?
  2. Play stupid. Since presuppositions are legit in the apologist's logic, let's accept it and state our own "presupposition" : *nothing* can be known for sure. This should lead to quite an "interesting" debate :
    - I know that god exists.
    - No you don't.
    - Yes I do.
    - No you don't.
    - How do you know?
    - It's my presupposition.
    - How do you know your presupposition is true?
    - I don't. My presupposition precisely states that nothing can be known for sure.
    - It's illogical.
    - No it's not.
    - Yes it is.
    ....
    Hours of fruitful debate to follow.


You may say that these are childish scenarios, and I would agree. Nonetheless, if I accept to debate, I have to find a common ground with my opponent, a common language, a common logic. If my opponent sticks to his presupposition, I go with it. The presuppositionalist claim *is* childish, hence is the debate.

Actually I have other weird ideas, but I'm interested in what you guys think of all this.

If any presup apologist is around, I'd be quite interested in his/her opinion too.

Now you see what you have to do? You have to reduce your worldview to absurdity.

Whoopitdy doo.. you've said that many many times, and always ignore peoples responses when they admit to you. SO WHAT?

I embrace the absurd notion of the reality we live in, divine and create meaning in my own experience even though there is no inherent meaning. You repeatedly state this concept as something impossible or a negative without a point to why it would be... so what if we accept we can't be certain in what we know and it is probably pointless?

Maybe I am just a brain in a vat... okay So what? There's no reason for that alter the manner in which I go about things.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-12-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(17-11-2014 10:50 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-11-2014 01:51 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  Now you see what you have to do? You have to reduce your worldview to absurdity.

Whoopitdy doo.. you've said that many many times, and always ignore peoples responses when they admit to you. SO WHAT?

I embrace the absurd notion of the reality we live in, divine and create meaning in my own experience even though there is no inherent meaning. You repeatedly state this concept as something impossible or a negative without a point to why it would be... so what if we accept we can't be certain in what we know and it is probably pointless?

Maybe I am just a brain in a vat... okay So what? There's no reason for that alter the manner in which I go about things.

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10-12-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: ACE's Rebuttal to Presuppositional Apologetics
(10-12-2014 08:32 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 10:50 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Whoopitdy doo.. you've said that many many times, and always ignore peoples responses when they admit to you. SO WHAT?

I embrace the absurd notion of the reality we live in, divine and create meaning in my own experience even though there is no inherent meaning. You repeatedly state this concept as something impossible or a negative without a point to why it would be... so what if we accept we can't be certain in what we know and it is probably pointless?

Maybe I am just a brain in a vat... okay So what? There's no reason for that alter the manner in which I go about things.

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If this all that you have to contribute, it is well past time for you to seek attention somewhere else kid.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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