AI dictatorship
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08-09-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
Yea.
I suppose if you could put a certain amount of.. responsibility (for lack of a better word) on it, it could be used as a justification for things, as you mention, like getting rid of certain diseases which we don't do now because of moral reasons.
It's easy to say "the computer said so" than person X is responsible for passing this law "breaching your rights".
Of course you'll still get the law suits and such so I suppose even then it doesn't really change anything.

The only way I could see it being possibly successful would be a brand new country and having it from the very beginning.
But I suppose even than all you're doing is a computer generated society...

I dunno, I don't think it's real world workable. But it's something interesting to think about.

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08-09-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
(08-09-2013 04:56 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yea.
I suppose if you could put a certain amount of.. responsibility (for lack of a better word) on it, it could be used as a justification for things, as you mention, like getting rid of certain diseases which we don't do now because of moral reasons.
It's easy to say "the computer said so" than person X is responsible for passing this law "breaching your rights".
Of course you'll still get the law suits and such so I suppose even then it doesn't really change anything.

The only way I could see it being possibly successful would be a brand new country and having it from the very beginning.
But I suppose even than all you're doing is a computer generated society...

I dunno, I don't think it's real world workable. But it's something interesting to think about.

It is an interesting topic...using technology for better governance is always useful to explore. We may not like how it is used--say scanning metadata in phone records, to take a recent example in the news. It would be incredibly useful though to inform policy makers on the effects of proposed policies--set this tax rate at X, that welfare funding level at Y, and so on, and see what AI says about the outcome. As a public policy analysis tool, something like this could be very useful. Just don't delegate the actual decisions to the computer.
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08-09-2013, 06:50 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
(08-09-2013 03:47 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(08-09-2013 07:28 AM)BryanS Wrote:  This was the same thought experiment I ran through my mind when thinking of Sam Harris's proposed objective morality that minimizes suffering of conscious beings. Human sacrifice in the manner you describe would perhaps minimize suffering except that if you knew this was happening, that knowledge alone might increase suffering. AI would no doubt see that it would be beneficial that humans not be made aware of such an organ procurement policy.

Human morality has evolved through natural selection for the purpose of passing on genes. Our morality is not based on minimizing suffering, but rather our own repulsion toward harming those close to us. Human morality is not always rational, and therefore would be difficult to program into AI.

I'm sure you could come up with some complex mathematical equation though.
So like 1 person being killed off would be -100 (for example) and 6 people suffering would be -60 (-10 each). The same with slavery. Someone having no rights could be -1000 for example.


It's certainly an interesting concept to think about. Possibly the most plausible replacement for government.
The problem though is that AI is linear. You program it to get from A to C it's going to go ABC. And so you're still going to need people to determine what is acceptable and what isn't. So say you want to go from A to D but B is something horrible like slavery. You still need people to determine that B is a horrible thing and stop the computer from going ABCD and instead just ACD.
In that respects it's extremely counter productive because you still end up with a problem of who determines what direction to go in and you're still going to have people who want to go in one direction or another.

ie: Currently here there are 2 major parties, Labor and National.
Labor is the left for the worker nanny state garbage party. National is the for business further the economy only viable voting choice party.
Both take the country is a very different direction.

You have the exact same problem with the computer. Some people would disagree with raising the minimum wage for example (a typical Labor thing to do). Or some people would disagree with small business start up grants etc...

It doesn't really solve the problem, at all. (and yes I realize I contradicted myself like 3 times in this post, idc)

What Muffs said, computers understand rules and goals so it's not a problem of morality, it's a problem of defining and weighting it realistically. You let people weight their desires and satisfaction, you monitor the social metrics of regions and people nutrition, education, productivity, etc. It's not about propositions and politicians, it's about math, it's a way bigger version of The Sims that only a machine can play. The hard part is gathering all the data.

I worry more about the hazard in centralizing power at that level plus the interconnectivity necessary for such a program to run leading to the hackability/failure potential of such a system.

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08-09-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
(08-09-2013 06:50 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(08-09-2013 03:47 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm sure you could come up with some complex mathematical equation though.
So like 1 person being killed off would be -100 (for example) and 6 people suffering would be -60 (-10 each). The same with slavery. Someone having no rights could be -1000 for example.


It's certainly an interesting concept to think about. Possibly the most plausible replacement for government.
The problem though is that AI is linear. You program it to get from A to C it's going to go ABC. And so you're still going to need people to determine what is acceptable and what isn't. So say you want to go from A to D but B is something horrible like slavery. You still need people to determine that B is a horrible thing and stop the computer from going ABCD and instead just ACD.
In that respects it's extremely counter productive because you still end up with a problem of who determines what direction to go in and you're still going to have people who want to go in one direction or another.

ie: Currently here there are 2 major parties, Labor and National.
Labor is the left for the worker nanny state garbage party. National is the for business further the economy only viable voting choice party.
Both take the country is a very different direction.

You have the exact same problem with the computer. Some people would disagree with raising the minimum wage for example (a typical Labor thing to do). Or some people would disagree with small business start up grants etc...

It doesn't really solve the problem, at all. (and yes I realize I contradicted myself like 3 times in this post, idc)

What Muffs said, computers understand rules and goals so it's not a problem of morality, it's a problem of defining and weighting it realistically. You let people weight their desires and satisfaction, you monitor the social metrics of regions and people nutrition, education, productivity, etc. It's not about propositions and politicians, it's about math, it's a way bigger version of The Sims that only a machine can play. The hard part is gathering all the data.

I worry more about the hazard in centralizing power at that level plus the interconnectivity necessary for such a program to run leading to the hackability/failure potential of such a system.

Well ofcourse there should always be a group of people that check the reliability of the AI and if it has been hacked or compromised there should be an intern government to run the country.

Also about gathering data, just a matter of sending as much data as possible online automatically like education results, weather radars, bank information, etc. There will be data that has to be send manually but if certain people get a device that's connected to the AI and can send it new information by filling in forms it shouldn't be all that hard. Completely eliminating human influence would be much harder.

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09-09-2013, 03:00 AM
RE: AI dictatorship
Something like this would require governments to work together in a way that would kinda make this project unnecessary in the first place wouldn't it?

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09-09-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: AI dictatorship
Yes. Thumbsup

Fuck Asimov. Tongue

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09-09-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: AI dictatorship
(09-09-2013 03:00 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Something like this would require governments to work together in a way that would kinda make this project unnecessary in the first place wouldn't it?

No reason you couldn't hand a state or two over to the machine at a time.

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09-09-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: AI dictatorship
I'm not going to get too fussed about this until we've achieved an AI.

Hasn't happened, yet.

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09-09-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
(09-09-2013 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not going to get too fussed about this until [it's a possibility]

Said no philosopher, ever.

Boo, Chas! Boo!

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09-09-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: AI dictatorship
(09-09-2013 08:18 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(09-09-2013 03:00 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Something like this would require governments to work together in a way that would kinda make this project unnecessary in the first place wouldn't it?

No reason you couldn't hand a state or two over to the machine at a time.


Yabut, the machine may well command that those nations capture strategic nations which have not yet 'complied'. Then we have a Robo-Hitler on our hands, and no body wants that....okay, well, most people don't want that anyway.

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