ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
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14-10-2012, 06:42 PM
ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
(14-10-2012 06:25 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Hey guys! Just sitting in church, 35mins to show time. Big Grin see you on the flip side- so I don't drink the purple stuff passed around, right??? Tongue

I dare you to flash the pastor!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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14-10-2012, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2012 12:06 AM by LadyJane.)
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
(14-10-2012 06:42 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 06:25 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Hey guys! Just sitting in church, 35min to show time. Big Grin see you on the flip side- so I don't drink the purple stuff passed around, right??? Tongue

I dare you to flash the pastor!




I'd rather go get some wholesome Christian baking from the lobby (true story) but should have done this to the dude who stopped to ask personal belief questions (sadly, also true story). It's back on!

ETA: the sad part was I didn't get to the baking on time. The break was too short.

(PS so was that a wild dream Erx, or has that happens to you? Evil_monster )
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14-10-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
Did anyone else go or am I the only nut? (mmm, nuts!)

Same shit different pile.

I'll give the run down as I saw it tomorrow when I can think straight (so tired, listening to circle reasoning is exhausting!)
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14-10-2012, 11:50 PM
ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
(14-10-2012 08:15 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 06:42 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I dare you to flash the pastor!




I'd rather go get some wholesome Christian baking from the lobby (true story) but should have done this to the dude who stopped to ask personal belief questions (sadly, also true story). It's back on!

(PS so was that a wild dream Erx, or has that happens to you? Evil_monster )

They were checking for pagan spies!

There really weren't very many people in my congregation I would've wanted to flash me. Undecided

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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14-10-2012, 11:58 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
(14-10-2012 11:50 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 08:15 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  I'd rather go get some wholesome Christian baking from the lobby (true story) but should have done this to the dude who stopped to ask personal belief questions (sadly, also true story). It's back on!

(PS so was that a wild dream Erx, or has that happens to you? Evil_monster )

They were checking for pagan spies!

There really weren't very many people in my congregation I would've wanted to flash me. Undecided



Actually, they were checking because they welcomed the local atheist society who apparently went, too. They were sitting opposite of us in the sanctuary (my friend saw). Not sure if they stayed to chat, we left right after.
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15-10-2012, 10:39 AM
ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
(14-10-2012 11:58 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  
(14-10-2012 11:50 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  They were checking for pagan spies!

There really weren't very many people in my congregation I would've wanted to flash me. Undecided



Actually, they were checking because they welcomed the local atheist society who apparently went, too. They were sitting opposite of us in the sanctuary (my friend saw). Not sure if they stayed to chat, we left right after.

So where's your report? We need to know what happened.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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16-10-2012, 01:44 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
Alright, this is based off my messy notes so hopefully I get the points across properly from the 2.5 hours.

They start by saying 2 things that perked my ears. The first is how many people are viewing this, which is 150plus churches and many colleges. On the conservative side my math says this is about $50-60 000. The second thing is that Atheism is the belief that there is no belief in God. So we start the discussion not even knowing what they are discussing No

Basically Dr Craig always believed in God when he looked at the cosmos (not a good way to start when you speak to skeptics, lol) and went on with all the old arguments of filling the voids and gaps with God and how scientist deny the need for causation. It's the Christian God because of the 4 fundamental truths (which he wasn't going to say until prompted really) and they are Jesus laid in a tomb (that's the first fundamental truth, all by its own self Dodgy ), Jesus rose, people saw him, the disciples believed this. Miracles reinforce this now (but we must know God works within the constraints of natural law since he is outside of it and we are in it).

Another topic that came up, if God is outside of these things, why the evil? To which Dr Craig explains how evil PROVES God and morality. Morality is a spinoff of evolutionary biology, is objective (which atheists agree). God needs objective morality to work with us and our faith dilemma and this is too intellectually big and not a problem because of this.

Dr Craig believes atheism is not someone who seeks truth but instead is a psychology of someone who doesn't understand truth (I'm assuming he means the truth of God). He says atheism could well be called shmatheism, it's just a psychological term.

They spew statistics (not sure from where) that people who watch the debates given by him and top atheists, sometimes included the late Hitchens, atheists by the dozens or hundreds walk away Christians, and one atheist came up to him to say "Dr. Craig spanked Hitchens like a scolded child". They chuckle a bit about this. They buttered up how sorry for the loss of him they are and how many prayed for him, but they did make little jabs. Sad Then he said he never fights dirty and refuses to debate when it gets personal. He doesn't want to debate about organized religion, just the truth of God.

____break____ (where I missed the cookies and got cornered)



After the break they interviewed two atheist turned Christians.

Dr Holly Ordway explains how in poetry (I missed who, sorry) she felt she wanted to understand and know the poets faith and power they possessed since she admired them. She wanted to know how to have that power (um...ok) She explored deeply this concept and ended it by reading Narnia and forcing herself to imagine God. (Whoa!)

She explained how she didn't feel love for Jesus at first- how Christianity is hard and atheism is easy-, but someone in her congregation explained how the obedience is an act of love so that itself is love. (Yes, an abusive relationship is a loving one, we all know this, right?)

She also explained how Christianity has the most historical evidence from both theist and atheist perspectives (no cited sources). Also Dr Craig's Cosmology work was a huge help.

Randall Niles is a business man who faced death with his mom, so he started to question and found meaning (correlation is causation stuff) in his small steps to faith. One of his examples was the first day he stepped into a church was the day his wife decided to accept Jesus, etc. Paraphrasing because it's a common emotional conversation with no evidence for belief.

He has a website called allaboutgod.com. They have all kinds of sources for Christianity, blah blah. Total business plug. He also say they're secretly trying to get key words and questions in search engines to bring up Christian sources on at least the first page to draw people towards Christianity since the internet is the biggest battle.

_____


They wrap up with how to talk to atheists. They say that usually it is a story or emotion that turned atheists away from Christianity, a falling out or a moral disagreement and that these are the atheists that don't understand a true Christian perspective. This tangents into how to be careful because words have different meaning in Christian terms that in atheist terms (Faith, trust, from my heart, etc).


I should mention that the entire time everyone kept saying things like, "I couldn't be intellectually honest with myself" or "I wouldn't be able to look in the mirror" if I didn't "ask myself the tough questions and realize what the real truth is". They kept eluding to 'truth' being the Christian path and atheism felt like being dishonest. It reminded me of classic brainwash tactics. Sure enough my friend brought this up (he is a magician and hypnotist by trade), which was a whole other conversation Wink


Anyway, load of crap really. I can see how someone wavering on not knowing and not having done their proper homework would be emotionally swayed during this. Having gone to church growing up, just being there brings all those feelings back. Except going with a group of friends who 'get it' like I do is powerful and insightful.
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16-10-2012, 02:03 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
Having been involved in these sorts of things in the past, there is a heavy reliance upon Confirmation Bias.

"I think God is real so everything I look at and hear and say shows that I am right and non-believers are just deluded."

Sorry you missed out on the cookies. Those Fuckers. No

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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16-10-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
That allaboutgod.com site is interesting. Here is their description:

ABOUT US

We write compelling websites that reach out to skeptics, seekers, believers, and a hurting world with powerful evidence for God and the Good News of Jesus.

We believe truth transforms lives. Therefore, we place our content on the first few pages of the most popular search engines in the world. That way, when people seek answers on the Web, we're there with the truth at the top!

To read some stories of people whose lives have been changed through these sites, click here.

We are followers of Jesus. Like Jesus, we reject many of the issues found in “organized religion” (man-made attempts to reach God through rules and rituals). We consider the personal pursuit of God as paramount in each of our personal life journeys. We also believe that ultimate, saving Truth is found only through God’s Son, Jesus Christ. (Click here to read our Faith Statement.) We believe that the authoritative and primary source of that truth is the Bible as illuminated by the power of the Holy Spirit. Further, we believe that spiritual growth occurs in combination with being in God’s Word consistently and dealing with the things we suffer in this fallen world while being in fellowship with a local body of believers where there is an atmosphere of grace, love, and accountability.

Although we're not formally affiliated with any organization or denomination, we work with a number of credible ministries and churches. Read what some of them are saying here.

AllAboutGOD.com is a service of All About GOD Ministries, Inc., a 501©(3) non-profit corporation located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Currently, we have a small staff and over 300 writers and other volunteers. Formal governance is maintained by an outside Board of Directors.

Our current donor base is primarily individuals and entrepreneurs with a heart for cutting-edge, culturally-relevant ministry. If you feel led, we'd love to have your support.

Simply, our mission is to share the Good News with the Globe via the World Wide Web!

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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16-10-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: ALERT "Unpacking Atheism" by William Lane craig and Lee Strobel
It's amazing the things Craig gets away with in his lectures. I was watching him debate the probability of the resurrection of Jesus using an mathematical formula for probability. His comment went something like this:

"Is it plausible that Jesus rose from the dead by means of natural causes? Of course not. But is it plausible that Jesus rose from the dead by means of supernatural causes? Absolutely."

He then goes on, without any thought to how plausible the existence of the supernatural actually is, to show that the resurrection is mathematically on the probable side.

Here's his debate with Bart Ehrman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...hT4IENSwac

He gets owned by Ehrman in this debate, but in true Craig fashion, keeps repeating his old points as if they're still relevant. The sad thing is that Craig is intelligent enough to spin verbal trickery around lesser educated opponents, and he never leaves his comfort zone in a debate. Knock down one of his points, and he'll just prop it right back up as if nothing happened. I can see why Christians love him.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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