ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
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11-03-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
Trying to make Gechazi into Jesus is an interesting task. Gechazi's reference in Sanhedrin 107b seems more to explain why Elisha became Ill, because he pushed his student away. And then it immediately falls into the Yeshu story of a similar thing done by his teacher. And this repeat pattern is very common in the Bavli. Although I can see where one could come to that conclusion, based on how it is positioned, I am not fully convinced that they are one in the same without doing a lot of reinterpretation.

As an aside, Gechazi is listed as one of the 4 who should have no share in "The World to Come", but in other places, they cut all four of them (Gechanzi, Bilaam, Achitophel, and Doeg) some slack because of their teachers. Finally, the Jerusalem Talmud, which is "Jesus Free" also contains the Gechazi story, although with a less positive ending for him, and does not fall into the Yeshu story ("Jesus Free"), but ends with the moral teaching "Push with your left and hand pull with your right."



(11-03-2013 09:17 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Talmud.

I would contend that the lying Gehazi is actually a hypocorism for Saul (Josephus) rather than Jesus - the deceitful Gehazi who returned to collet the money that Jesus (Elisha) had refused. One of the versions about the flight into Egypt has Yeshu pushing Gehazi away (ie, Jesus pushing Saul-Josephus away, and thus precipitating the Jewish Revolt). And if you read that 'Egypt' section again, we have.

The slaughter of the priesthood 'children', by the 'evil' king (the children of Israel)
The flight of Jesus to Egypt.
The return from Egypt
The stay in an Inn.

This is a parody or an alternative version of the Nativity for Jesus, but based upon a much older and mature Jesus, who was fleeing from Jannai (said to be Agrippa) because he was a priest (or high priest) of Jerusalem.


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11-03-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
American born, age 60, spent several years learning in Yeshivot and Kollel plus teaching within the Daf Yomi cycle. Volunteer help for Jews for Judaism. But after some years of pointing out how Christian theology is BS, I went "Uh oh" a couple of years ago, as I applied the same critical eye to my own. I have live in Israel for the past 10 years in an Orthodox community, married, have 4 children and 5 grandchildren. I still teach and learn, just with a completely different mindset. Even though I have not "come out", my friends jokingly call me an Apikorsis. Ah, if they only knew! (One can openly say "There is no way that all those critters can fit into that ark!", but never say "This book is BS!")
(11-03-2013 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-03-2013 01:17 AM)EGross Wrote:  As an aside, I am the author of the PDF. And yes, I know that there are a couple of mis-spelled words and at least 2 grammatical errors, but the content is still good! Big Grin
Wow! You know your stuff.

Please post more!!!!!!!!! Please tell us more about yourself.

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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11-03-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
That's a shame, I feel badly for you. I've spoken with Toviah Singer, his hemeneutics are very poor. There are ways to fit the critters on the ark--many kinds of critters evolved from what sailed with Noah... thanks.
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11-03-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
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>>I love the Monty Python reference. And I believe it is pretty close to the truth.

As we all know, Monty Python and Life of Brian had many snippets of esoteric history in amongst their exoteric mirth - as the main players openly admitted.



>>No big disagreements in what was posted. As I noted, while the Toldot Yeshu came from a later
>>source, apparently Spanish, around the year 1000, there is evidence from the Cairo ganeiza that it a
>>buffed up version from earlier sources - post Amoraic (5th century or later), and only in peices.

I would be very interested in any accademic thoughts on why Jesus had to be hung on a carob tree, according to the Toledoth, as I could not find any. In my opinion, it was done purely because the carob is a Locust Tree.




>>I picked up, some time ago, an Issue from Tarbitz, published from Hebrew University here in Israel. And
>>an author (Yaakov Deutsch) of one of the Articles "Testimonies on an earlier form of Toldot Yeshu" makes
>>some excellent points, not only about the development of the story and the age, but comparing it's evolution
>>with the change in cultures.

I would be most grateful for a look at this, and I think most people on this site would think likewise. You are very generous.
And don't worry about any academic dryness, as I managed to read 1,600 pages of Eisenman and only fell asleep twice. Wink




>>Now, as far as Notzri goes, it is a 3rd-4th century use 8 times by the Sages, as found in the
>>oldest (non-burnt) versions of the Bavli. You don't find it in any earlier texts, and not at all in the
>>Jerusalem talmud. So Notzri too may be a swipe, combining the word for Nazerene (from Nazereth),
>>Nazir (long haired and no drinking/eating from the grape), and Netzer (a metaphor for the descendant
>>of Yishai, a Moshiach (David was also referred to in this way, so "son of David" gets it too).

There is another blog-site, where they have discussed this single word for weeks. But I cannot get too excited by it. If you read the Talmud, as you have obviously done, you will know it is a veritable smorgasbord of wordplay. There is wordplay for demonstrations of knowledge, wordplay for secrecy's sake, wordplay for bawdy humour, and wordplay for the sheer hell of it.

I am pretty sure that if the rabbis found several similar words that could link the life of a Jewish hermit, with a branch of a vine and with long hair (and in Arabic with a fish), they would have only been too pleased to link them all together. Incidentally, I am with thise who believe that Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century. This was simply another literary device to cover up the fact that Jesus was a Nazarene (because the Nazarene were not very Christian). And yet, as was often the case, the author of the gospels wanted to include this knowledge so that those "with ears to hear" would understand this esoteric heresy. Same with the verse calling Jesus 'Emmanuel' too. There was no need to include this verse, as it is very heretical, but it was there for the initiated, who "had ears to hear".

As an example, for others on this thread who have not seen this Talmudic wordplay before, the Talmud calls Mary Magdalene the Dresser of Ladies Hair, and it does so not simply because she was a Nazarene and had long hair, but because the Hebrew is (and I hope I have this right) Miriam Magbalah Nesayir - which is an obvious wordplay-pun on Miriam Magdalene the Nazarene.




>>Ah, if only I had a Tardis!

And if you find one, can I have a go too !?!

Actually, this has already been done. I am not sure if Black Adder and the Time Machine is on Youtube, but if it is, it is well worth viewing. (in many respects, Black Adder was a follow-on from Monty Python)



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11-03-2013, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2013 02:20 PM by EGross.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
Ah, Rowan Atkinson. I think I have everything he's done. Big Grin

As far as a carob tree goes, there are two things. First, they grow like weeds in Israel. They don't require much water, and yes, if you look at the fruit as it falls, it does look like dead locusts. There are also Midrashic references that speaks of their properties. Shimon bar Yochai and his son supposedly lived on the stuff for years, and nothing else. Now, I don't know if you have ever tasted fresh carob from the tree, but I can't imagine living on that stuff! You have to develop a liking for it, and then it still will plug you up (a good supplement if your kid has diarrhea). If I recall, it is also call St. John's because John the Baptist lived on it. The Hebrew word is Charuv, which has the same root as "dehydrated" and "parched", and upon tasting it, you can see the connection! According to the Talmudic writings, these things are big, the branches go out far, the trunks are very big, and the roots go down far.

But there is also the symbol of return based on it's uses by the sages. There is a Midrash (Talmud Ta'anit 23a), of a man named Choni who was bothered by Psalm 126:1, concerning the return of the Jewish people. He plants a carob tree, goes to sleep for 70 years, and wakes up to find the tree fully grown. The story goes on, and you can Google it, but the 70 years represents the exile, and they equate that to the time it takes for a carob tree to bear it's first fruit. It has a lot of deep symbolic significance.

There is a Midrash that Shimon bar Yochai and his son were in exile while the Roman emperor still lived and that they lived on the fruit of the carob tree and nothing else, and eventually they returned to lead the Jewish people with a messianic message, that also failed.

Searching my Midrash Rabbah database on חרוב, I see only a few uses.

Quote:* That God brought Eve to Adam from under it and a sycamore tree to return her to him like an arbour chuppah for his bride.
* When a heretic asked why did God appear in a flaming bush, the reply was: "Were it a carob tree or a sycamore tree, you would have asked the same question!" (An alternate version used fig instead of sycamore). (The symbol of the return of the Hebres from captivity).
* A story of a man who bought a trunk of a carob tree and when scopping it out, he found a treasure (the trunks are pretty wide).
* Absolom is compared to a carob tree with his wild hair.
* Three belts were tied together and they still couldn't reach around the girth of a carob tree in israel.
* One Rabbi cut into a carob tree and his hand filled with honey.
I would have to say that the common use of the symbol is it's bigness, reaching far down and far high, and bearing a fruit that one can survive on, as well as the previously inferred symbol of "return".

Keep in mind that the Jews pray of the Moshiach, and the return. So having him hanging on a Carob tree does seem to be a bit of an overplay - A return, yes. But by this guy? No!

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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11-03-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
(11-03-2013 12:59 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  As an example, for others on this thread who have not seen this Talmudic wordplay before, the Talmud calls Mary Magdalene the Dresser of Ladies Hair, and it does so not simply because she was a Nazarene and had long hair, but because the Hebrew is (and I hope I have this right) Miriam Magbalah Nesayir - which is an obvious wordplay-pun on Miriam Magdalene the Nazarene.


You may want to check out the "knowledge site" (daat.ac.il):
http://translate.google.co.il/translate?...CHIQ7gEwBg
While the English translation isn't that good, the Israeli site uses mostly simple hebrew to make it worth reading and cites Toldot Yeshu (Generations of Jesus) and reasons why he probably never existed, and the legends written about him by the Jews.
I'm off to bed!

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12-03-2013, 10:34 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2013 10:49 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
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(11-03-2013 02:16 PM)EGross Wrote:  As far as a carob tree goes, there are two things. First, they grow like weeds in Israel. They don't require much water, and yes, if you look at the fruit as it falls, it does look like dead locusts. There are also Midrashic references that speaks of their properties.


The reason for thinking that Jesus was crucified on a carob tree, is because this covertly links him with bar Kamza in the Talmud (Gittin 55). The carop tree is a locust, while Bar Kamza was also a locust. (Kamza was derived from 'locust' according to the Talmud)

bar Kamza was the leader of the Jewish Revolt, and yet I have alread linked the biblical Jesus as the leader of the Revolt, because he was Jesus-Izas of Adiabene - the leader of the Revolt. So bar Kamza is Jesus.

The account of bar Kamza says he was an univited guest at a party, and when he was discovered he was thrown out by Johannan ben Zakkai ( the leader of post-revolt Judaism). However, this is the very same party that Jesus went to, and caused a commotion in, in John 7:1 - 12. Thus:

Jesus was the leader of the Revolt who was thrown out of the party, and is identified with a locust.
bar Kamza was the leader of the Revolt who was thrown out of the party, and is identified with a locust.

Again, bar Kamza is Jesus.

Once again, we see that the Talmud was covering up very sensitive information through its extensive use of hypocorisms and puns. The Talmud authors obviously knew that Jesus was Jesus-Izas of Adiabene (ie, King Manu VI of Edessa) and chose to cover up that information by calling him a locust. And the reason for the 'locust' appelation is obvious - During the Plagues, the locusts came out of the east and destroyed Egypt. Likewise, the Edessan monarchy came out of the east and destroyed Judaea. So the Edessan monarchs were locusts. QED.



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12-03-2013, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2013 10:54 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
(11-03-2013 02:56 PM)EGross Wrote:  You may want to check out the "knowledge site" (daat.ac.il):
http://translate.google.co.il/translate?...CHIQ7gEwBg

While the English translation isn't that good, the Israeli site uses mostly simple hebrew to make it worth reading and cites Toldot Yeshu (Generations of Jesus) and reasons why he probably never existed, and the legends written about him by the Jews.


Interesting site.

I did not know that John Doe was a Talmudic name for Jesus. And I have not seen that as an explanation for this name's modern usage (meaning an unknown person). Is there a talmudic reference, because I cannot find it.

(Or is the talmudic reference to an 'unknown man', and the Google translaton has made a big assumprion?)


Thanks,
Ralph
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12-03-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
I would suggest that the "locust and son of locust" is referring to something that would seem insignificant, but then grow out of proportion. And that, as we historically know what caused the destrction of the temple was the hatred between Beith Shammi, which had become corrupt and filled with killers and thugs, and their killing of members of Beit Hillel. And that since we know this happened historically, that we can apply this symbolic reference to that period. Beit Shammai had decreed that there would be no more offerings accepted by the non-Jews, and Beit Hillel complained, but to no avail. Eventually they gave in and the Hillel leadership would end up supporting the Shammai rule.

That seems to fit into the chicken story nicely.

I think that trying to put Jesus in here as the reason for the fall of the Temple is a bit of a stretch, given what we know of those days versus what Christians would have us know of those days.

The use of a locust, might also be a bit of a nod at the halachic position of a locust. Out of all of the locusts, there is only one variety that is kosher. However, we have long lost how to identify the kosher one among all of the non-kosher ones (some have a tradition that they know the sign to look for, but most don't). And perhaps using "locust" is to express the inability to determine the fit from the non-fit during this terrible time, rather than trying to have a locust be a tree that a later book would use to kill Jesus on.











(12-03-2013 10:34 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  .
(11-03-2013 02:16 PM)EGross Wrote:  As far as a carob tree goes, there are two things. First, they grow like weeds in Israel. They don't require much water, and yes, if you look at the fruit as it falls, it does look like dead locusts. There are also Midrashic references that speaks of their properties.


The reason for thinking that Jesus was crucified on a carob tree, is because this covertly links him with bar Kamza in the Talmud (Gittin 55). The carop tree is a locust, while Bar Kamza was also a locust. (Kamza was derived from 'locust' according to the Talmud)

bar Kamza was the leader of the Jewish Revolt, and yet I have alread linked the biblical Jesus as the leader of the Revolt, because he was Jesus-Izas of Adiabene - the leader of the Revolt. So bar Kamza is Jesus.

The account of bar Kamza says he was an univited guest at a party, and when he was discovered he was thrown out by Johannan ben Zakkai ( the leader of post-revolt Judaism). However, this is the very same party that Jesus went to, and caused a commotion in, in John 7:1 - 12. Thus:

Jesus was the leader of the Revolt who was thrown out of the party, and is identified with a locust.
bar Kamza was the leader of the Revolt who was thrown out of the party, and is identified with a locust.

Again, bar Kamza is Jesus.

Once again, we see that the Talmud was covering up very sensitive information through its extensive use of hypocorisms and puns. The Talmud authors obviously knew that Jesus was Jesus-Izas of Adiabene (ie, King Manu VI of Edessa) and chose to cover up that information by calling him a locust. And the reason for the 'locust' appelation is obvious - During the Plagues, the locusts came out of the east and destroyed Egypt. Likewise, the Edessan monarchy came out of the east and destroyed Judaea. So the Edessan monarchs were locusts. QED.



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12-03-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
heh! Google Translate inserted that whenever it sees פלוני which translates generally as "some guy". Usually used when speaking hypothetically as in "imagine paloni walking down the street and all of a sudden..." Also, that is a university site. "AC" in Israel is the same as ".EDU".
(12-03-2013 10:47 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(11-03-2013 02:56 PM)EGross Wrote:  You may want to check out the "knowledge site" (daat.ac.il):
http://translate.google.co.il/translate?...CHIQ7gEwBg

While the English translation isn't that good, the Israeli site uses mostly simple hebrew to make it worth reading and cites Toldot Yeshu (Generations of Jesus) and reasons why he probably never existed, and the legends written about him by the Jews.


Interesting site.

I did not know that John Doe was a Talmudic name for Jesus. And I have not seen that as an explanation for this name's modern usage (meaning an unknown person). Is there a talmudic reference, because I cannot find it.

(Or is the talmudic reference to an 'unknown man', and the Google translaton has made a big assumprion?)


Thanks,
Ralph

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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