ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
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12-03-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
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>>And that, as we historically know what caused the destrction of the temple was the hatred between
>>Beith Shammi, which had become corrupt and filled with killers and thugs, and their killing of members of Beit Hillel.

But that is not Josephus' explanation.

Josephus starts by saying that the destruction of Jerusalem came about by the Fourth Sect of Judaism, which was founded by Judas of Gamala-Galilee and then led by Jesus of Gamala-Galilee. He then goes on to say that the opening battle was led by King Monobazus-Izas and the final surrender of Jerusalem was by King Izates-Monobazus (King Izas). Whatever was going on inside the Temple, was incidental to the major civil war going on all around it. And the leaders of the Revolt were Jesus (Gamala) and Izas (Adiabene) - (who I say was the same person). This was the biblical Jesus, which is why he was jailed and crucified for being a revolutionary, exactly the same as King Izas-Monobazus was.

But the Talmud clearly states that the destruction of Jerusalem came about by bar Kamza (the locust). So bar Kamza must be Jesus-Izas (the biblical Jesus).

And by extension, since I have said that Izas of Adiabene was King Manu VI of Edessa (they had the same monther, Queen Helena), then bar Kamza is also King Manu of Edessa (ie, Izas-Jesus). This is why Jesus was called (Em)Manu(el), because he was King Manu of Edessa.

And it is here, perhaps, that we can now see how the Talmudic 'Kamza' hypocorism really works. The Edessan king was called King (Izas) Manu au Kama VI. The Talmud has merely taken the KAMA title, and turned it into KAMZA - because the Edessan monarchy were said to have been destructive locusts.

And we see the same terminology in the Acts of the Apostles. Here, King Abgarus au Kama (the father of Manu) was called Agabus - and again Agabus means 'locust'. Thus King Abgarus was called a locust (in Acts), bar Kamza (bar Kama) was called a locust (in Talmud), and Jesus was crucified on a locust tree (Toledoth).


I put it to readers again, that thisnwas a deliberate code. The Edessan (Adiabene) monarchy were destructive locusts who had caused the Jewish Revolt, and so the many covert tales about them called them locusts - in the Talmud, Acts ofnthe Apostles, and the Toledoth Yeshu.


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12-03-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
I am not convinced, since I hold that Jesus never existed, and that the only inserts seem to be centuries later. As far as Josephus goes, his writings are to be taken with a few grains of salt due to his relationship with Vespasian, the primary editor. Josephus also wrote of the great suicide at Masada (which is also not mentioned by the sages), which has been shown to have no evidence of ever having happened, and his description of the place does not match the archeological remains that we have today. While he does provide some good information where it is lacking, when it comes to unverified history-makers, a bit of confirmation is always good.

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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12-03-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
(12-03-2013 12:10 PM)EGross Wrote:  I am not convinced, since I hold that Jesus never existed, and that the only inserts seem to be centuries later. As far as Josephus goes, his writings are to be taken with a few grains of salt due to his relationship with Vespasian, the primary editor. Josephus also wrote of the great suicide at Masada (which is also not mentioned by the sages), which has been shown to have no evidence of ever having happened, and his description of the place does not match the archeological remains that we have today. While he does provide some good information where it is lacking, when it comes to unverified history-makers, a bit of confirmation is always good.


Sorry, I cannot agree with your view of Masada.

Josephus narrates that a wall was built to surround Masada, which is still there, complete with standard Roman camps. From the top of Masada, you can clearly see the Roman camps and the great wall that surrounds Masada. They are Roman, pure and simple, and they are a siege device.

Then Josephus relates that a great ramp was built, so that siege engines could be brought up to the almost impregnable Masada mount. Again, that great ramp is still there, and you can walk up it almost to the topmof Masada, to the broken wall at the top.

In fact, the many evidences presented at Masada, are proof-positive that Josephus can be a reliable historian, when he wants to. Excuse me asking, but have you been to Masada?


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12-03-2013, 12:44 PM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2013 12:48 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
In that link you gave us, I noted this:

Quote:
Essence of the story is that John, who was Talmud Chacham and pious.

I find this interesting, as a son of King Abgarus of Edessa was called Shamchacram. Again, like EmManuel and Manu, the names Chacham and Shamchacram have a remarkable amount of synergy. I will have to read up about this talmudic character.


Edit.

Ok, I see that a Chacham is a Sage or wise man. Thus Sham Chacram might be something like Shama (Simon) the Sage?


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13-03-2013, 01:42 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2013 02:05 AM by EGross.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
Have I been to Masada? lol - It's about a 1 hour drive from where I live. It makes for a nice dawn picnic. But I prefer a mid-day view during the winter. In the wee hours the IDF usually trains it's new recuits by having them march up the mountain at dawn and telling them the myth as though it were history. I prefer taking the cable car! It has also become far too Christian-ized in the past few years for my tastes, with a video speaking of John the Baptist and other foreign customsm, and christian statues and medallions sold in the gift shop. I prefer a less tacky version.

And saying that "Oh, look. a ramp" means that the story is true is like one of the supposed burial places of Jesus, for a long time, was this ruins that had a big round stone in the front. "See, it matches the story", until someone with acedemic credentials told them it was a wine press stone, and that it was not a burial site, but an ancient winery. Big Grin A ramp does not denote the maker of it, as Dr. ben Yehuda explained in his book, about 10 years ago, called "The Masada Myth".

The lack of a single body (excluding about a half dozen roman solders found in a cave) from this mass suicide, the description of the palace that does not match the current ruins in size, number of columns, or design, the speech that he could never have witnessed, and the fact that the Rabbinical writers never wrote a single word of it throughout history, makes it like the Jesus story - you have a few history bits inserted with some fiction that not only cannot be confirmed, but do not make a lot of rational sense.

The story itself was fairly dead until Israel needed some sort of symbol to rally behind, and the soldiers and student are still indoctrinated, but more and more are seeing it as a ruin without any suicide ending. Josephus seems to have loved suicide, considering it pops up in several places. It was amazing that there were any Jews left by his accounts.

Think of it, the Jews have poetic dirges of the atrocities and the deaths of that period, but not one poem that mentions Masada. Nada. A story that has the husbands slash up their wives and children, then each other, and then the bodies go "poof" and the memory of it goes "poof", except by someone who was obviously never there - relying on details he did not know, and a speech he had not heard, and most likely, a battle that never took place.

Nachman ben Yehuda, a professor of Anthropology, did a presentation concerning the Masada Myth, to the American Socialogical Association a number of years ago, as the story, at least here in Israel, took on a more metaphoric rather than a literal historic event, having then been classified by the UN as a historic site. You might be interested in reading his presentation here

On the other hand, it is a big money making business in Israel, with millions of dollars coming from tourists who like a good horror story. One of the best Israeli tour guides that I have seen doing a 5-minute presentation to summarize the Josephus myth of Masada can be seen below. Well worth watching for it's entertainment value! (Recently, the tour guides have been injecting truth by inserting the word "Myth" into their presentations. (Plus this guy is soooo Israeli!)








(12-03-2013 12:21 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(12-03-2013 12:10 PM)EGross Wrote:  I am not convinced, since I hold that Jesus never existed, and that the only inserts seem to be centuries later. As far as Josephus goes, his writings are to be taken with a few grains of salt due to his relationship with Vespasian, the primary editor. Josephus also wrote of the great suicide at Masada (which is also not mentioned by the sages), which has been shown to have no evidence of ever having happened, and his description of the place does not match the archeological remains that we have today. While he does provide some good information where it is lacking, when it comes to unverified history-makers, a bit of confirmation is always good.


Sorry, I cannot agree with your view of Masada.

Josephus narrates that a wall was built to surround Masada, which is still there, complete with standard Roman camps. From the top of Masada, you can clearly see the Roman camps and the great wall that surrounds Masada. They are Roman, pure and simple, and they are a siege device.

Then Josephus relates that a great ramp was built, so that siege engines could be brought up to the almost impregnable Masada mount. Again, that great ramp is still there, and you can walk up it almost to the topmof Masada, to the broken wall at the top.

In fact, the many evidences presented at Masada, are proof-positive that Josephus can be a reliable historian, when he wants to. Excuse me asking, but have you been to Masada?


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13-03-2013, 01:50 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2013 02:28 AM by EGross.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
(12-03-2013 12:44 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  In that link you gave us, I noted this:

Quote:
Essence of the story is that John, who was Talmud Chacham and pious.

I find this interesting, as a son of King Abgarus of Edessa was called Shamchacram. Again, like EmManuel and Manu, the names Chacham and Shamchacram have a remarkable amount of synergy. I will have to read up about this talmudic character.


Edit.

Ok, I see that a Chacham is a Sage or wise man. Thus Sham Chacram might be something like Shama (Simon) the Sage?


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No. There is no connection to Chacham and Chacram, like in English between Flight and Flint. Just because they have most of the letters in order, in Hebrew you need a shared root, which it does not have. Also, Simon is Shimon. Tweaking the name by dropping letters doesn't really work there either. Shem means "name" and Sham means "there".

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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13-03-2013, 01:51 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?



It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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13-03-2013, 02:16 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2013 02:25 AM by EGross.)
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
I find it suitable that James Gray is reading in the Childrens fiction section of the bookstore! lol Laughat
Wait! Aren't those Percy Jackson books next to him? You know, the son of a God named Neptune? Laughat

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13-03-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
Some of the fragmnents of some early Toldot yeshu are in the Russian National Library. While doing an internet search for the frament group marked "Evr. I 274" I came across a good paper on Toldot Yeshu at this site It is well written, delivered at a symposium at Princeton, and some of Dr. Deutsch's work is included, and titled "Judeo-Arabic Versions of Toldot Yeshu".

Arabic?

Ah, the fun never ends. Here is a snippet from the end of the document, noting a bit of the the Arabic version - the preface anyhow:

Quote:Praised be God, the God of Israel, creator of the heavens and the earth with his power and greatness, [who] destroyed the infidel tyrants and showed preference to the beloved righteous. Master of masters, motivator of all heavenly forces, liberator of the bound, mover of clouds, ruler of rulers, the all-powerful and the staunch, the clear truth, the destroyer of the polytheists and humbler of the infidels and destroyer of the oppressors and exterminator of the wicked. Protector of those close to him and the righteous, who saved the children of Israel from the Pharaohs, who are the Christian infidel people, and who gave them the cursed Jesus the Nazarene, and who caused them to follow his severe blasphemy in his great ignorance, and caused their leaders to perish by means of cursed counsel and caused them to worship wood and idols, and God, the blessed and exalted, caused him to perish within a short time because of his blasphemy and overstepping of bounds. And Israel suffered great difficulties on his account and they tried to return him [to the correct path], but they could not, because in our sources, every place where it is written wayyehi indicates great difficulties, as it is said, “In the time (wayyehi bi-ymei) of Tiberias Caesar [and] his minister Herod,” in those days there was a man of the line of King David, of blessed memory, and his name was Yoh˙anan, and he had a beautiful wife whose name was Miriam. Her husband was a God-fearing man, and was one of the students of Rabbi Shim’on ben Shatah', of blessed memory. He had a wicked neighbor named Yosef Pandera, and that wicked man was quite dishonorable, and he was always looking at the women. He coveted the wife of that Yoh˙anan, and it was the month of Nisan immediately after the beginning of the Passover, and that righteous man (Yoh˙anan) would rise to go to the yeshiva at night. So one night he arose to go the yeshiva, locking the door....

Goot times!

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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13-03-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: ANY contemporary evidence for Jesus ?
(13-03-2013 01:42 AM)EGross Wrote:  And saying that "Oh, look. a ramp" means that the story is true is like one of the supposed burial places of Jesus, for a long time, was this ruins that had a big round stone in the front. "See, it matches the story", until someone with acedemic credentials told them it was a wine press stone, and that it was not a burial site, but an ancient winery. Big Grin A ramp does not denote the maker of it, as Dr. ben Yehuda explained in his book, about 10 years ago, called "The Masada Myth".

The lack of a single body (excluding about a half dozen roman solders found in a cave) from this mass suicide, the description of the palace that does not match the current ruins in size, number of columns, or design, the speech that he could never have witnessed, and the fact that the Rabbinical writers never wrote a single word of it throughout history, makes it like the Jesus story - you have a few history bits inserted with some fiction that not only cannot be confirmed, but do not make a lot of rational sense.


I still think you do Josephus an injustice here. He says:

Quote:
(The Romans) also built a wall quite round the entire fortress, that none of the besieged might easily escape; he also set his men to guard the several parts of it; he also pitched his camp in such an agreeable place as he had chosen for the siege, and at which place the rock belonging to the fortress did make the nearest approach to the neighboring mountain,”


One might think that is impossible, for it is a huge fortress. And yet thatis exactly what we see - the entire hill compassed by a defensive wall, with fortresses in 'several parts', and the largest closest to the other hills.

Josephus' description of Masada is also perfect - in height, steepness, summit wall, cisterns, embelishments by Herod the Great, etc. And he says of the ramp that the Romans made:

Quote:
“there was a certain eminency of the rock, very broad and very prominent, but three hundred cubits beneath the highest part of Masada; it was called the White Promontory. Accordingly, he got upon that part of the rock, and ordered the army to bring earth; and when they fell to that work with alacrity, and abundance of them together, the bank was raised”

And the White Promontory is indeed white, and matches Josephus description perfectly. I am not sure how you dissasociate this ramp from the Roman siege - which obviously happened due to the siege wall and army encampments around the hill.

As to the speeches, Josephus was writing a great literary work, as well as a historical account. There had to be speeches, just as the New Testament has speeches that Saul-Josephus probably never heard. In this case, you could pretty much guess what a commander of a suicide pact might say, although there were two survivors who may have added to Josephus' knowledge.

As to the number of Judaic suicides, well that was pretty much par for the course for sieges in that and later eras, if you were on the losing side. Read the accounts of the crusade against the Cathars, and you will see many similar mass suicides, for the Cathars also lost that campaign. War was not pretty, in those days.

And since the Masada fortress was occupied by the Romans afterwards, it is unlikely in the extreme that they would happily lived alongside 960 rotting bodies (960 is probably an exaggeration). The dead would be desposed of, and I don't think that throwing them over the edge would suffice. For sanitation and aroma's sake, the desposal would have to be quite thorough, in the Roman fashion.

All in all, I think Josephus gives us a pretty good eyewitness account of the siege of Masada.


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