ATTN: Erxomai
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28-06-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 01:31 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Sovereign sounds like your god to me. Especially since he seeks to destroy the world.
Dude scares the beejesus out of me!

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28-06-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 12:59 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I've been doing research about the whole Genesis 1:26 thing.

It looks like you're right, and I was wrong.

I'm recanting my previous assertions in the fact that, as it appears, it does seem as if God is addressing a council.

Why was this language used?

My preliminary studies have shown this:

1) Based on the culture and language of the Ancient Near East peoples, there was a concept of God addressing the entirety of heaven.
2) In the same vein as I understand Genesis to be non-literal, it is also understood that the "our" isn't meant to be taken literally IE God is not equating Himself to the council.
3) This was simply another part of the story adapted from the original story to tell the Hebrews about God.
Cool, I had some more stuff I got from a friend who is a linguistics guru, but decided if it was important to you, you'd figure it out on your own. Thumbsup
It still leaves an interesting (from a Theist point of view) of why would God need to announce his plans to a Heavenly audience. But I think it's the same literary device used in the first chapter of Job. I don't think the reader is intended to believe Satan and God literally made a wager about Job. It would be a pretty boring myth/story if stuff just happened without giving some background to motive and intent of the characters involved. In the Creation myth, it gives more punch to describe God's motive behind making Humans than to simply say Humans were made on the 6th day.

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28-06-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 02:11 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  In the Creation myth, it gives more punch to describe God's motive behind making Humans than to simply say Humans were made on the 6th day.

Erxy,
Since Satan and his boys are such a huge part of Christian theology, and totally absent from Genesis, where did they get it ? As in, not the origins, really, but how does one justify "all kinds of shit goin on", ie in "time", when the universe hadn't been created yet, (no spacetime), ... willful angels sayin bye-bye, "get out, and stay out", and going to hell, (and BTW how does a non-corporeal spirit "suffer" from fire). It just recently struck me, "hey wait a minute..all that crap going on, and no time to do anything". I know. Shut up.

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28-06-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 02:11 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  In the Creation myth, it gives more punch to describe God's motive behind making Humans than to simply say Humans were made on the 6th day.

Erxy,
Since Satan and his boys are such a huge part of Christian theology, and totally absent from Genesis, where did they get it ? As in, not the origins, really, but how does one justify "all kinds of shit goin on", ie in "time", when the universe hadn't been created yet, (no spacetime), ... willful angels sayin bye-bye, "get out, and stay out", and going to hell, (and BTW how does a non-corporeal spirit "suffer" from fire). It just recently struck me, "hey wait a minute..all that crap going on, and no time to do anything". I know. Shut up.
Well obviously you're not reading the Mishnah or Talmud so you're missing out on all the proof about Satan and the boys. Tongue

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28-06-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 02:41 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Erxy,
Since Satan and his boys are such a huge part of Christian theology, and totally absent from Genesis, where did they get it ? As in, not the origins, really, but how does one justify "all kinds of shit goin on", ie in "time", when the universe hadn't been created yet, (no spacetime), ... willful angels sayin bye-bye, "get out, and stay out", and going to hell, (and BTW how does a non-corporeal spirit "suffer" from fire). It just recently struck me, "hey wait a minute..all that crap going on, and no time to do anything". I know. Shut up.
Well obviously you're not reading the Mishnah or Talmud so you're missing out on all the proof about Satan and the boys. Tongue


Yabut,
So popey read the Talmud ? How did they justify it ?

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28-06-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 02:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 02:41 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Well obviously you're not reading the Mishnah or Talmud so you're missing out on all the proof about Satan and the boys. Tongue


Yabut,
So popey read the Talmud ? How did they justify it ?
Popey got it from the Roman mythology of Pluto/Hades Thumbsup

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-06-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 02:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 02:11 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  In the Creation myth, it gives more punch to describe God's motive behind making Humans than to simply say Humans were made on the 6th day.

Erxy,
Since Satan and his boys are such a huge part of Christian theology, and totally absent from Genesis, where did they get it ? As in, not the origins, really, but how does one justify "all kinds of shit goin on", ie in "time", when the universe hadn't been created yet, (no spacetime), ... willful angels sayin bye-bye, "get out, and stay out", and going to hell, (and BTW how does a non-corporeal spirit "suffer" from fire). It just recently struck me, "hey wait a minute..all that crap going on, and no time to do anything". I know. Shut up.
It's not earthly fire - it's spiritual fire. Geez, fuckin' obvious. Dodgy

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28-06-2012, 05:37 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
See, this is why I called you rational, KingsChosen. You came to the conclusion that you were wrong on one of your stances and modified your beliefs based on that. I can't even express how much I admire such a quality.

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28-06-2012, 06:05 PM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2012 06:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 03:00 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Popey got it from the Roman mythology of Pluto/Hades.


Ok. I guess what I was asking for was a serious academic resource, for the point where the grafting occurred. I wanted to know exactly, when and by whom the extra-Genesis, but obviously pre-creation stuff (angelic-conflict-Lucifer) got put into place, in systematics, and by whom, exactly. I thought Erx would know, from seminary days. I guess that was an ignorant request, as it ain't that simple. The idea of fallen heavenly beings is all over the place, and even in Qumran and Paul. I never paid attention. It's also interesteing that originally, in Christian theology the fallen angels were not cast into hell, but sent to earth, and many thought they would eventually be saved. Interesting. Thanks for the clues.

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28-06-2012, 06:38 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 06:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 03:00 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Popey got it from the Roman mythology of Pluto/Hades.


Ok. I guess what I was asking for was a serious academic resource, for the point where the grafting occurred. I wanted to know exactly, when and by whom the extra-Genesis, but obviously pre-creation stuff (angelic-conflict-Lucifer) got put into place, in systematics, and by whom, exactly. I thought Erx would know, from seminary days. I guess that was an ignorant request, as it ain't that simple. The idea of fallen heavenly beings is all over the place, and even in Qumran and Paul. I never paid attention. It's also interesting that originally, in Christian theology the fallen angels were not cast into hell, but sent to earth, and many thought they would eventually be saved. Interesting. Thanks for the clues.

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Yeah, sorry Dude, it is a good question, but I was answering while I was at work so I didn't give it the attention it deserves. Hell and Demons, etc. pre-date Christianity. Satan goes back to at least Job, which most scholars believe was the earliest OT book to be written, or at least compiled. Satan and his homies are all over the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, and Mishna. The Synoptics have Jesus using the imagery of Gehenna, which was an ancient site outside Jerusalem where sacrifices were made to the Baals and and even child sacrifices to Moloch. It was a trash dump by Jesus' time with fires burning pretty much all the time to burn up the garbage and filth, so basically to a pious crowd who believed cleanliness was next to godliness, Gehenna was certainly a place to be avoided for the smell and heat and crap. Somewhere along the line the Early Church Fathers used this imagery to describe Hell, but off the top of my head, I couldn't give you a reference. But yes, the community at Qumran had quite a hard on for Hellish imagery as a place where God would send their enemies and Paul picked up some of this in his writings as well. I couldn't say for sure, but I think the imagery really got turned up a notch during Medieval Times and especially by the Inquisitors.

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