ATTN: Erxomai
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28-06-2012, 06:50 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 06:38 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 06:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ok. I guess what I was asking for was a serious academic resource, for the point where the grafting occurred. I wanted to know exactly, when and by whom the extra-Genesis, but obviously pre-creation stuff (angelic-conflict-Lucifer) got put into place, in systematics, and by whom, exactly. I thought Erx would know, from seminary days. I guess that was an ignorant request, as it ain't that simple. The idea of fallen heavenly beings is all over the place, and even in Qumran and Paul. I never paid attention. It's also interesting that originally, in Christian theology the fallen angels were not cast into hell, but sent to earth, and many thought they would eventually be saved. Interesting. Thanks for the clues.

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Yeah, sorry Dude, it is a good question, but I was answering while I was at work so I didn't give it the attention it deserves. Hell and Demons, etc. pre-date Christianity. Satan goes back to at least Job, which most scholars believe was the earliest OT book to be written, or at least compiled. Satan and his homies are all over the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, and Mishna. The Synoptics have Jesus using the imagery of Gehenna, which was an ancient site outside Jerusalem where sacrifices were made to the Baals and and even child sacrifices to Moloch. It was a trash dump by Jesus' time with fires burning pretty much all the time to burn up the garbage and filth, so basically to a pious crowd who believed cleanliness was next to godliness, Gehenna was certainly a place to be avoided for the smell and heat and crap. Somewhere along the line the Early Church Fathers used this imagery to describe Hell, but off the top of my head, I couldn't give you a reference. But yes, the community at Qumran had quite a hard on for Hellish imagery as a place where God would send their enemies and Paul picked up some of this in his writings as well. I couldn't say for sure, but I think the imagery really got turned up a notch during Medieval Times and especially by the Inquisitors.
Those inquisitors sure knew how to party. And they believed in profits.

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28-06-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
They did have people wear party hats. [Image: goya_inquisition.jpg]

I bet you were surprised when I mentioned the Spanish Inquisition...




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29-06-2012, 07:09 AM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 06:55 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  They did have people wear party hats. [Image: goya_inquisition.jpg]

I bet you were surprised when I mentioned the Spanish Inquisition...





I truly was not expecting the Spanish Inquisition Smile

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29-06-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 06:38 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 06:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ok. I guess what I was asking for was a serious academic resource, for the point where the grafting occurred. I wanted to know exactly, when and by whom the extra-Genesis, but obviously pre-creation stuff (angelic-conflict-Lucifer) got put into place, in systematics, and by whom, exactly. I thought Erx would know, from seminary days. I guess that was an ignorant request, as it ain't that simple. The idea of fallen heavenly beings is all over the place, and even in Qumran and Paul. I never paid attention. It's also interesting that originally, in Christian theology the fallen angels were not cast into hell, but sent to earth, and many thought they would eventually be saved. Interesting. Thanks for the clues.

[Image: 280px-Hieronymus_Bosch_073.jpg]
Yeah, sorry Dude, it is a good question, but I was answering while I was at work so I didn't give it the attention it deserves. Hell and Demons, etc. pre-date Christianity. Satan goes back to at least Job, which most scholars believe was the earliest OT book to be written, or at least compiled. Satan and his homies are all over the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, and Mishna. The Synoptics have Jesus using the imagery of Gehenna, which was an ancient site outside Jerusalem where sacrifices were made to the Baals and and even child sacrifices to Moloch. It was a trash dump by Jesus' time with fires burning pretty much all the time to burn up the garbage and filth, so basically to a pious crowd who believed cleanliness was next to godliness, Gehenna was certainly a place to be avoided for the smell and heat and crap. Somewhere along the line the Early Church Fathers used this imagery to describe Hell, but off the top of my head, I couldn't give you a reference. But yes, the community at Qumran had quite a hard on for Hellish imagery as a place where God would send their enemies and Paul picked up some of this in his writings as well. I couldn't say for sure, but I think the imagery really got turned up a notch during Medieval Times and especially by the Inquisitors.


That's really interesting .. the Gehenna part. I had forgotten that. It's part of the picture of the actual huge f'ing mess that city was really like. Can you imagine the smell ? The entire economy was built on sacrificing animals, (which is the reason Jesus was executed, in my opinion), as he threatened the business of the city..the temple economy, overturning the tables of the money changers). Have you ever been to Cairo ? You can smell it from 250 miles away. If you want an idea what the Fires of Gehenna were like, go to Cairo. Weeping

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29-06-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
I wonder why God chose to have the book of Genesis written so late in human history, and so late in the history of Israel, and why it is based on myths that seem to have nothing to do with the Yahweh god. Was there a true history of Adam and Eve and God's relationship with man that was corrupted through other cultures, and then fixed in the book of Genesis through divine revelation hundreds of years after Moses is said to have lived?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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29-06-2012, 08:07 AM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(29-06-2012 07:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I wonder why God chose to have the book of Genesis written so late in human history, and so late in the history of Israel, and why it is based on myths that seem to have nothing to do with the Yahweh god. Was there a true history of Adam and Eve and God's relationship with man that was corrupted through other cultures, and then fixed in the book of Genesis through divine revelation hundreds of years after Moses is said to have lived?


The thing is, god had nothing to do with it. It was actually written around 575 BCE around the Babylonian Exile, , (national crisis)to form a national "story" or history, as an instrument of "political group formation". It was a useful tool to have a national history, which was essentially invented, by assembling the circulating (oral) myths.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-06-2012, 08:19 AM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(29-06-2012 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The thing is, god had nothing to do with it. It was actually written around 575 BCE around the Babylonian Exile, , (national crisis)to form a national "story" or history, as an instrument of "political group formation". It was a useful tool to have a national history, which was essentially invented, by assembling the circulating (oral) myths.
The same argument can be made that the New Testament came about for the same reasons, sub Roman for Babylonian...

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29-12-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(28-06-2012 01:22 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  On a side note:

I don't know why I was getting hung up with the words in the first place.

It seems pretty obvious, especially since I understand the creation story as a myth adaption... basically means it's not literal... at all.
What is the point of the creation story? The way it's written seems to me to create much confusion in the audience.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to say "god did it" and be done with it, rather than add these details that make it appear inaccurate, contradicting, sexist, unjust and nonsensical?
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29-12-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
(29-12-2014 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-06-2012 01:22 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  On a side note:

I don't know why I was getting hung up with the words in the first place.

It seems pretty obvious, especially since I understand the creation story as a myth adaption... basically means it's not literal... at all.
What is the point of the creation story? The way it's written seems to me to create much confusion in the audience.

Wouldn't it have been simpler to say "god did it" and be done with it, rather than add these details that make it appear inaccurate, contradicting, sexist, unjust and nonsensical?

What is the point of bringing this thread back?
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29-12-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: ATTN: Erxomai
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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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