ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
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23-06-2015, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2015 05:24 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
He also believes a literal Noahtic flood happened, so all of the "kinds" on Noah's boat would have to generate at least 500+ species from each "kind" as well as populating each of these species in less than 5,000 years time. (We don't need no stinkin' population bottlenecks! Praise Jeebus!)

This is simply a fantasy construct that doesn't have the slightest resemblance to evolutionary theory, it's pure magical thinking every bit as foolish and contrived as YEC.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-06-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(23-06-2015 01:13 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  I know this will be ignored or Godwinned, but how is it that Q says Adam & Eve story is literal and only fools deny evolution yet Cartilage says Adam & Eve story is literal and only fools think evolution is real.

Same book. Different views on fools.

So who's not the True Christian?

There aren't any True Christians™. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-06-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(04-03-2015 12:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1) What is your denomination?

I'm part of a non-denom movement of churches.

2) What is your stance on the Doctrine of Free Will versus the Doctrine of Election?

I believe in Free Will.

3) What is your Origins stance (ie - YEC, OEC, Progressive Creationist, Theistic Evolutionist, etc)?

I believe the Adam and Eve account is literal. However, only fools disbelieve in Evolution. Evolution is scientific fact.

4) What is your eschatological stance (ie - Pre Trib, Post Trib, Amillennial, etc)?

"Pre-wrath." Believers will go through much of the 7-year Tribulation Period but be rescued from the final days of wrath upon the world.

5) Do you believe in a literal Bible?

Yes.

6) Do you believe in an infallible Bible? Or an inerrant Bible? Or both?

The Bible in the original manuscripts is infallible and inerrant. Thankfully, the extant copies being translated are demonstrably almost 100% the same as the originals...

7) Which version of the Bible do you use for study?

My most frequent reads are the NKJV and the NASB as formal and beautiful translations.

8) What is your background when it comes to Ancient Near East history, culture, and writings?

I became motivated to study them more after becoming a Christian years ago. They are vital to understanding difficult passages of the Bible in their historical context.

9) What is your background in regards to the Greek and Hebrew language?

I studied Greek for a year at university. I've studied Hebrew and Aramaic also, though not to the same extent.

10) Do you give credence to non-canonized books (ie - Book of Enoch, The Assumption of Moses, Gospel of Thomas, etc)?

These books offer glimpses of life in the ANE and have some tidbits of truth in parts, but the 66 books of the accepted Bible are inerrant as well as contain gematria and codes that mark them as unique.

I would like to hear KC's comment on Q's answers Big Grin
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25-06-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(24-06-2015 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any True Christians™. No


I beg to differ. Big Grin

True Christians.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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25-06-2015, 10:30 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(25-06-2015 08:43 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(24-06-2015 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any True Christians™. No


I beg to differ. Big Grin

True Christians.

OMG. That site is hilarious.

Godly Sex

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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25-06-2015, 10:36 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
Q's belief in the simultaneous literalism of the Adam & Eve story with an Old Earth and evolution as the mechanism of Creation isn't quite as nuts as it sounds at first glance.

The book Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn, goes into this a bit, and I've always found its principle plausible, even though I don't agree with the literal story of sin entering the world.

Loosely, it goes like this:

Adam is a word meaning, simply, "man". The use would be the same in Hebrew as in English, in that it can mean a single individual or the species itself, or can mean one individual as representative of the species, as in da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. If one takes the story of the first couple of chapters of Genesis as a very ancient story, passed-down orally from before the pre-Hebrews were nomadic peoples living among the Chaldeans/Sumerians, before they moved to what is now Canaan, and finally written down sometime during the Davidian period, it is an issue of a post-Agricultural-Revolution people trying to record and interpret a story originally written by a Hunter-Gatherer people with a very different perspective on the world.

In their version, Man the Hunter-Gatherer lived in the Garden of God (the entire earth), surviving by the Providence of God, as they saw it. That is, all the food they needed was made available if they simply looked around. Research into the H-G lifestyle seems to indicate that a post-ag lifestyle involved much more actual work and effort than that of a H-G. Of course, like any species, we lived by the laws of nature, and could over-forage an area, so our ancestors would have been aware of a simple rule: no animal gets to decide for itself whether or not it eats that moment/day. It is "the problem of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Only the gods can know that information, because if the eagle gets to decide it will catch the rabbit (good for the eagle, as he has a full belly, but evil for the dying rabbit), soon the rabbits are wiped out; if the rabbit gets to decide, the eagles starve and the bunnies overpopulate the planet and wipe out other species that depend upon that balance to survive. Then one day (about 10,000 years ago), Man decided for himself that he would no longer depend on the Providence of the Creator for his meal, that he would be godlike and attain the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and was then cursed to be ejected from the "garden of God", forced to forever live "by the sweat of his brow."

Along with agriculture comes a massive population bloom, and the need for ever-more territory, and thus came the first expansionist warfare (beyond the "erratic retaliator" strategy of raids employed by most H-G peoples still extant, as well as our chimp cousins) and national boundaries. To the pre-Hebrews, who were not H-G anymore but were still nomadic shepherders, their agrarian brothers were unacceptable to God, while they still lived as closely as possible to the original, God-ordained manner of Adam in the Garden. Thus the elements of the story in which Abel's animal sacrifice was "acceptable" to God, while Cain's was rejected, and with this came the murder of man by his agriculturalist brothers.

This allegorical interpretation makes the Genesis story a valuable warning, sent to us today by our pre-agriculturalist ancestors through their descendants about 3,000-4,000 years ago, who imperfectly recorded the warning into a story that was never meant to be taken literally. We are indeed killing the planet, and as a result we are indeed "beginning to die", as Man was told when he decided he knew best what was Good and what was Evil.

Now, I'm not saying that I agree with this particular idea, that knowledge is suspect and that man is incapable of handling it, only that our H-G ancestors would have seen the early agrarian trend with such a jaundiced eye. And they're not entirely wrong! So far, we have done a miserable job with this responsibility. If we do not think of the writers of the original tale as total idiots simply because they were not "civilized" in the modern sense, then their warning may have meaning that Christians (and yes, us heathens) would do well to heed, today. My wife, who is a Christian and a geneticist, is the one who put me on to this notion of how to look at allegorical Genesis. Food for thought, anyway!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-06-2015, 10:45 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
Oh, and Q... anyone who thinks the Noah account is anything more than a poor adaptation of the Unapishtim story from Sumerian mythology needs to pay better attention. Same with the 900-year-old Patriarchs, the angel-human hybrids, and most of the rest of the early Genesis tales. It's so bleedin' obvious that the nomadic pre-Hebrews brought these tales with them out of Chaldea when Abraham and his father left that location, and passed them down into their own set of oral traditions. Spend some time reading a translation of these stories, and it leaps right out at you!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-06-2015, 10:58 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(25-06-2015 10:36 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Q's belief in the simultaneous literalism of the Adam & Eve story with an Old Earth and evolution as the mechanism of Creation isn't quite as nuts as it sounds at first glance.
Anything can be interpreted in anyway, and the bible is often interpreted to often mean the exact opposite of what the literal interpretation is.

It just goes to show that really it doesn't matter what book you start with. I'm sure they could have used Mein Kamph and come up with the same beliefs.

From evolution we know that there never was a first man or first human. Our lineage goes all the way back to pre DNA, even pre RNA. The distinction between human and that early version seems obvious but at what precise moment would you ever say that the offspring is human but the parent is not human? There isn't such a moment.

The tree of knowledge of right and wrong is obviously a creative metaphor. People had moral beliefs and imagined a myth-story to explain how we went from no moral beliefs to having moral beliefs. Moral beliefs is a concept that humans invented and created a Meme to be passed around, it isn't something that we attained or discovered.

I guess the garden and original sin thing came from the idea that a perfect creator would have created a perfect world and that somehow beyond the responsibility of the creator the world must have become corrupt so that there now exists pain, disease and death. Again another creative myth-story. A perfect world is inconceivable, if everything were perfect it would be incredibly boring (which is of course, less that perfect). If there was no death then humans would never have evolved.

Certainly there has been a lot of philosophy and creativity gone into these myth-stories and these have been analysed and reasoned and fine tuned over hundreds if not thousands of years. Some of the interpretations are very well thought out. But of course they all fail to have any basis on reality and require some hard to swallow axioms like a magical invisible shy sky daddy.
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25-06-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(25-06-2015 10:36 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Q's belief in the simultaneous literalism of the Adam & Eve story with an Old Earth and evolution as the mechanism of Creation isn't quite as nuts as it sounds at first glance.

The book Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn, goes into this a bit, and I've always found its principle plausible, even though I don't agree with the literal story of sin entering the world.

Loosely, it goes like this:

Adam is a word meaning, simply, "man". The use would be the same in Hebrew as in English, in that it can mean a single individual or the species itself, or can mean one individual as representative of the species, as in da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. If one takes the story of the first couple of chapters of Genesis as a very ancient story, passed-down orally from before the pre-Hebrews were nomadic peoples living among the Chaldeans/Sumerians, before they moved to what is now Canaan, and finally written down sometime during the Davidian period, it is an issue of a post-Agricultural-Revolution people trying to record and interpret a story originally written by a Hunter-Gatherer people with a very different perspective on the world.

In their version, Man the Hunter-Gatherer lived in the Garden of God (the entire earth), surviving by the Providence of God, as they saw it. That is, all the food they needed was made available if they simply looked around. Research into the H-G lifestyle seems to indicate that a post-ag lifestyle involved much more actual work and effort than that of a H-G. Of course, like any species, we lived by the laws of nature, and could over-forage an area, so our ancestors would have been aware of a simple rule: no animal gets to decide for itself whether or not it eats that moment/day. It is "the problem of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Only the gods can know that information, because if the eagle gets to decide it will catch the rabbit (good for the eagle, as he has a full belly, but evil for the dying rabbit), soon the rabbits are wiped out; if the rabbit gets to decide, the eagles starve and the bunnies overpopulate the planet and wipe out other species that depend upon that balance to survive. Then one day (about 10,000 years ago), Man decided for himself that he would no longer depend on the Providence of the Creator for his meal, that he would be godlike and attain the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and was then cursed to be ejected from the "garden of God", forced to forever live "by the sweat of his brow."

Along with agriculture comes a massive population bloom, and the need for ever-more territory, and thus came the first expansionist warfare (beyond the "erratic retaliator" strategy of raids employed by most H-G peoples still extant, as well as our chimp cousins) and national boundaries. To the pre-Hebrews, who were not H-G anymore but were still nomadic shepherders, their agrarian brothers were unacceptable to God, while they still lived as closely as possible to the original, God-ordained manner of Adam in the Garden. Thus the elements of the story in which Abel's animal sacrifice was "acceptable" to God, while Cain's was rejected, and with this came the murder of man by his agriculturalist brothers.

This allegorical interpretation makes the Genesis story a valuable warning, sent to us today by our pre-agriculturalist ancestors through their descendants about 3,000-4,000 years ago, who imperfectly recorded the warning into a story that was never meant to be taken literally. We are indeed killing the planet, and as a result we are indeed "beginning to die", as Man was told when he decided he knew best what was Good and what was Evil.

Now, I'm not saying that I agree with this particular idea, that knowledge is suspect and that man is incapable of handling it, only that our H-G ancestors would have seen the early agrarian trend with such a jaundiced eye. And they're not entirely wrong! So far, we have done a miserable job with this responsibility. If we do not think of the writers of the original tale as total idiots simply because they were not "civilized" in the modern sense, then their warning may have meaning that Christians (and yes, us heathens) would do well to heed, today. My wife, who is a Christian and a geneticist, is the one who put me on to this notion of how to look at allegorical Genesis. Food for thought, anyway!

You think that plausible? Facepalm

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-06-2015, 11:25 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2015 07:54 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
There was no Abraham. He was as mythical as all the other "patriarchs". Archaeology has proven the sites associated with them make their relationships impossible. But you are right about the word "Adam" and the Babylonian origins. It's a part of the Hebrew name "Adam Kademon". Whether "the man" can be interpreted in one way or another, no ancient Near Eastern human knew anything about origins that was not otherwise generally circulating at the time. What's in the Bible was appropriated from the culture. It "gave" nothing to the culture. The texts were not assembled into a canon until after the Exile. There is not a shred of evidence for their existence until after the Exile.
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