ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
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26-06-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(26-06-2015 06:24 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I read what you said re: sin entering the world not being a valid idea or connected to the story. I agree on both points. I was just making a general statement that many YEC's would not go the allegory route because they believe it would be like saying Jesus suffered miserably for a made-up story. The idea to them that the Genesis story is real, makes it seem necessary for Jesus to come along and save them. That said, looking at the entire Bible as one giant allegory poses some problems of its own. For instance, why would a supernatural being who is so adamant about his creations living a certain way communicate in allegory (a medium which is so open to interpretation?)

You mean if you don't interpret Genesis as literal, then the whole thing implodes upon itself?

Pity that....Big GrinBig Grin

Q doesn't seem to realize that evolution is entirely incompatible with the Genesis myth. Death and suffering permeates the entirety of the fossil record long before man was on the scene. Though he can hermeneutically twist the bible to say anything he wants it to say.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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26-06-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
I think his most and contrasting to sense statement is his answer to number 6, not the evolution talk.

There is copies and pieces of manuscripts known with constant errors and additions from the texts at constant points. How he decided to think the humans who made errors somehow picked the right and no wrong versions of texts that are the holy ones is a case of blind belief.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-06-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
Stevil - While I don't disagree with anything in particular that you're saying about the Bible, its terrible claims and instructions, and that those who follow it think Big Angry SkyMan is its originator, yadda yadda. However, all of that remains a straw-man, as I wasn't discussing the "standard" American Fundamentalist Christian (AFC) view of the story, but of what I was hypothesizing, as Educated Liberal Christians (ELC) have done, that the people who wrote it likely saw it in a very different set of terms than AFCs do, today. That ELC are even looking at revising the common tradition of that story's meaning is, I think, a good thing, and one we should put some of our own skeptical thought into. Because, as you point out, the Bronze-Age Tribal-Shepherd Warrior-Priests' version, as modified by mid- and post-Exile Zadukite priesthood combatting assimilation and trying to maintain a fading political hegemony, doesn't do much but harm people in an era where we men "allow" our females to participate in this discussion. Heh.

Bucky - Now you're playing a bit loose with the evidence. While I agree that Asherah, the "consort" of YHWH, was likely worshipped well past the Davidic period of history, there is no solid agreement on whether or not a solid monotheistic core had emerged in the Israelite tribal conglomerate just after 900 BCE, as claimed in the tales assembled a couple hundred years later by the Exile-era priesthood. Again, I agree with you, but the evidence for the hypothesis you promote here is not as solid as you would have us believe, even thought I think you're spot-on based on all I have read/seen. In other words, yes, while the Pentateuch, and "histories" like Kings and Chronicles are very obviously a mish-mash cut-and-paste job, the fragments of the scrolls they were assembling from among the refugees of the captivity came from somewhere; the only debate is how far back the original writings go, and whether the dates can be pushed back further than the language-eras they're scribed during. I don't know why you decided to get into the rhetorical difference between plagiarism and syncretism, as it doesn't really have bearing on my point about the borrowing effect. Frankly, it was after 4 AM and I had just finished up almost twelve hours straight of intense design work, which took way more time and effort than I had budgeted for it in my day, running behind on delivering it by this morning, and had just concluded my last checks, saved, and sent to the customer... and I didn't bother to use precision ancient-text-scholarship terminology. Sue me.

(On a side note: my favorite bit of "fishy" -- I like your use of this term in your linked post -- politics in the OT is the story of Solomon and the baby, the political parable in which "the baby", or the nation of Israel, is told it will be split in half by Solomon the Usurper if the "true mother", that is, the followers of Adonijah, the eldest of David and rightful inheritor of the throne supported by the ten northern tribes, don't "give up the baby" and let the usurper who had more power assume the throne, or else "he'd split the baby"-- send the nation into bloody civil war.)

I never suggested, to my knowledge, that anyone had knowledge of millions of years prior. However, at some point in prehistory, there would have existed semi-civilized, nomadic sheepherder tribal peoples in the Mesopotamia/Canaan region who possessed a cultural memory of "before", when they lived in a different way than their current generations. It need not be scientific method to be information. "If you put a clay pot of water on a fire, it boils eventually" is information, and requires no science for the ancient people to have discovered. "My dad told me a story that his dad told him, and so on back to Very Old Times" is information, however easily corrupted and malleable, and requires no science. But *we* may apply science to look back millions of years, and much more easily back 10,000 years ago, to the last days of the Hunter-Gatherers in the Fertile Crescent, right as the agricultural revolution was about to/beginning to occur. Though it was orally crafted several thousand years later (say, perhaps 3000 BCE, or 5000 YBP) into anything like the form found in Genesis, the tellers of the story still had fragments of "the old DNA" in their story, so we can look at the Exile-era JDEP-Redactor reassembly as recombined DNA fragments, among which we can search for endogenous fragments of the story that got deleted from the strand, but still gives us clues about the ancestral species.

It is because "modern" Christians -- or rather I should say, Christians of the modern era who insist on clinging blindly and desperately to the mindset of the Dark Ages regarding the crafting and meaning of the Wholly Babble -- have taken so strongly to the interpretations of Genesis which I am rejecting entirely, but which keep appearing in this thread because even us heathens have so thoroughly absorbed that standard-interp, that so much effort needs to be exerted to look for better understanding of this mythology. Like it or not, most of America bases their identity on this story, and while they may not be able to make the leap to "evolution is real, I should reject my mythology entirely", they might be able to consider an alternate explanation for the "sin-magic counteracted the god-magic made people die, so the Creator of the Universe had to make a mammal-male-offspring to be executed in blood-sacrifice so the 'Deep Magic' could work and we be free of the effects of the sin-magic" version now being promoted. Because, as others in the thread pointed out, this story of origins is so intimately tied to the Crucifixion in the minds of most Believers, it might behoove us to be able to promote and understand that there are alternative explanations among less-fundy believers... and to discuss and refine any arguments along that line so we can provide a sympathetic reading of their Wholly Babble instead of being the snippy, snide "damned heathen Atheists" they're taught to hate and fear, and thus reject wholesale instead of listening to us. My own road to non-belief came about because I was a reader, and I had discussions with a kind and well-read liberal theologian that allowed me to let go of my fundie versions, and eventually let go of it all.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-06-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
Oh, almost forgot - Jenniebee makes an excellent point. But I'm saying no supernatural creator was involved in any point in the entire story, not with the crafting of the story... and not with the doing of the magic... (Dr. Huxtable voice), only that the people who wrote it thought there was a magic sky being (or more likely, many such beings, since monotheism was still a concept millennia later than the time period of which I am speaking) that controlled the natural world around them. Call it, "evidence of ancient animistic belief fragments in a tale much-later attributed by monotheistic redactors to the actions of a single beared old guy-sky-deity, badly shoehorned into the original tale".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-06-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(26-06-2015 10:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  However, all of that remains a straw-man, as I wasn't discussing the "standard" American Fundamentalist Christian (AFC) view of the story
It's not a straw man of your position because I wasn't in anyway attempting to portray your own position. It's great that you have offered your own opinion, keeps the forum interesting. I have also offered my own opinion, my opinion does not in anyway relate to your opinion or present itself as an "interpretation" (albeit straw) of your position. Remember This song is NOT about YOU.

Now, I don't live in America, have never visited the country, have never had any interest in visiting the country, have no plans to visit the country, don't watch American sports, in general prefer british music and movies and tv to American stuff, have no interest in hotdogs, or burrittos, don't get excited about the American constitution, have never pledged allegance to the american flag, have no belief about America being the land of the free.
Given this I am not sure how you think I am portraying an AFC view of genesis.

(26-06-2015 10:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I was hypothesizing, as Educated Liberal Christians (ELC) have done, that the people who wrote it likely saw it in a very different set of terms than AFCs do, today. That ELC are even looking at revising the common tradition of that story's meaning is, I think, a good thing, and one we should put some of our own skeptical thought into.
They can interpret the myth-story however they like, it doesn't really matter. They will never make sense of it, never be able to reconcile the myth-story with the facts regarding evolution and the fact that morals are a belief system and not some universal fact to be discovered. No matter how they interpret the myth-story they will never be able to show that their own interpretation is any more valid than anyone else's interpretation. The bible has been done to death, many people get excited about it and have interpretations of it. But I can't see any relevance anyone's interpretation of the bible has regarding our own understanding of reality and human behaviour. In my opinion the bible is irrelevant tripe.
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26-06-2015, 07:02 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(26-06-2015 02:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Now, I don't live in America, have never visited the country, have never had any interest in visiting the country, have no plans to visit the country, don't watch American sports, in general prefer british music and movies and tv to American stuff, have no interest in hotdogs, or burrittos, don't get excited about the American constitution, have never pledged allegance to the american flag, have no belief about America being the land of the free.
Given this I am not sure how you think I am portraying an AFC view of genesis.

That makes you a very wise man. My best friend moved to South Korea five years ago, tired of the United States, and now refuses to come back to this country. He is afraid of even visit, after what he watched happen to me. It's a shock to us middle-class WASP (well, former Protestants, in our cases) males to learn that our country is not only not The Land of the Free... but in many cases, particularly to those who are minorities or who defy the mainstream socially-acceptable ideas of personal behavior, it is the or among the worst nations in the First World. That said, you can make a truly excellent burrito, if you use healthy ingredients... try it! Smile

The AFC's are a uniquely-vehement variety "fundie vision" of the Bible stories, which tends to be the "default" version here in America (though other countries do have them... most notably Australia, home of Ken Hamm...what a douchebag!), is the go-to for Biblical Literalism, and is why I used the term.

(26-06-2015 02:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  They can interpret the myth-story however they like, it doesn't really matter. They will never make sense of it, never be able to reconcile the myth-story with the facts regarding evolution and the fact that morals are a belief system and not some universal fact to be discovered. No matter how they interpret the myth-story they will never be able to show that their own interpretation is any more valid than anyone else's interpretation. The bible has been done to death, many people get excited about it and have interpretations of it. But I can't see any relevance anyone's interpretation of the bible has regarding our own understanding of reality and human behaviour. In my opinion the bible is irrelevant tripe.

Hear, hear! But given, as you say, many people get excited about it, especially here in the USA, I think anything we can do to come up with a more-plausible and sensible version (since all Christians, even the most rabid fundie, likes to think they are being sensible) will help stem the current tide of fundamentalist Creationism that is plaguing this country. See, for instance, the current thread about education in my home state of Louisiana. Weeping

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-06-2015, 07:21 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2015 07:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(26-06-2015 10:17 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Bucky - Now you're playing a bit loose with the evidence. While I agree that Asherah, the "consort" of YHWH, was likely worshiped well past the Davidic period of history, there is no solid agreement on whether or not a solid monotheistic core had emerged in the Israelite tribal conglomerate just after 900 BCE, as claimed in the tales assembled a couple hundred years later by the Exile-era priesthood. Again, I agree with you, but the evidence for the hypothesis you promote here is not as solid as you would have us believe, even thought I think you're spot-on based on all I have read/seen. In other words, yes, while the Pentateuch, and "histories" like Kings and Chronicles are very obviously a mish-mash cut-and-paste job, the fragments of the scrolls they were assembling from among the refugees of the captivity came from somewhere; the only debate is how far back the original writings go, and whether the dates can be pushed back further than the language-eras they're scribed during. I don't know why you decided to get into the rhetorical difference between plagiarism and syncretism, as it doesn't really have bearing on my point about the borrowing effect. Frankly, it was after 4 AM and I had just finished up almost twelve hours straight of intense design work, which took way more time and effort than I had budgeted for it in my day, running behind on delivering it by this morning, and had just concluded my last checks, saved, and sent to the customer... and I didn't bother to use precision ancient-text-scholarship terminology. Sue me.

You need to learn some history. They were not monotheistic until AFTER the Exile and the Isaiahs insisted on it, and strictly speaking, not even then.
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr18a01_heiser.pdf
http://asiasociety.org/hong-kong/events/...nt-judaism
The fact is the Hebrew "heavenly host" was populated with all kinds of "divine beings" up to and including the turn of the millennium.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-06-2015, 07:25 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
(26-06-2015 07:02 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  See, for instance, the current thread about education in my home state of Louisiana. Weeping
Oh, you come from one of those Southern, bible belt states.

I don't know what it's really like of course, not having ever been there, but from watching some TV shows and hearing about it in these forums it seems if states where school children, these Southern states would need to be put into the special needs class.
Of course, it's not their fault, they have been raised that way. But the rest of us seem to struggle to come to terms with what goes on in their special heads.

You being an atheist and right in the thick of it, I have to admire your ability to navigate your way around. I get a feeling I would be too outspoken and opinionated, and too much away from the "norm" to be able to craft a successful life for myself there.
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26-06-2015, 07:25 PM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
duplicate

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-06-2015, 01:06 AM
RE: ATTN: The Q Continuum - 10 questions about your beliefs
Yeah, it can be pretty intense, down there. I'm in southeastern Missouri, now, which is no better. Sad

Most of my family thinks I'm an asshole because I won't agree with their unceasing assertions of BS on subjects from religion to science to religion-based politics, and insist on correcting their BS when they try to send me The Truth. *sigh*

I shudder every time I log on to Facebook.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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