Abortion, choice or murder?
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05-02-2014, 01:05 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:01 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Drawing a "line in the sand" is necessary so a decision may be reached. Period. And Someone Has to do that - reach a decision.
And the Person who should Reach a decision would be the ONE person bearing the responsibility: The woman who is pregnant. Period.
It is absolutely No One's decision other than hers. IF she wishes to confer or take into account other opinions - that is also her Choice.

Please confirm you read my question above and your reply. You've said that since the mother bears responsibility for her children until they become legal adults, at age 18, the only person who can decide if terminating the child's life is abortion or murder is the mother. So, if a mother kills her 17 year old daughter, it is nobody's business but the mother's, and the daughter has no independent right to live unless the mother allows.

That's what you just said when I asked where you draw the line when abortion becomes murder somewhere between (a) conception, and (b) the child becoming an adult. You stated it's the mother's responsibility to decide where she draws the line.


Again, murder is a legal term and you know what it means. If you don't, look it up.

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05-02-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 12:15 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:11 PM)Dom Wrote:  If men were the ones carrying babies, abortion would long have been legal everywhere at any time.

Absolutely. No doubt. I heard (somewhere - can't remember) something to the tune of ' if men were the ones getting pregnant there'd be shops for abortion as handy as Starbucks. They'd be everywhere!'

This is silly. I don't dispute the premise, but even if men carried the baby you STILL have to decide when the baby becomes a separate human being with it's own right to live. I do NOT believe that if men had babies, society would accept your previous claim that it's the man's right to kill the child at any point until the child becomes a legal adult.
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05-02-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  Again, murder is a legal term and you know what it means. If you don't, look it up.

The dictionary:

Murder: The killing of another human being

As I said, you have to decide WHAT is a human being.

Human Being: any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

Homo: the genus of bipedal primates that includes modern humans and several extinct forms, distinguished by their large brains and a dependence upon tools.

Notice that even with the dictionary definition, it's still not clear, because one would argue that at 8 months an unborn fetus is clearly homo sapien, therfore, according to the dictionary, it is murder. But the dictionary doesn't help you determine when that cluster of cells becomes a homo sapien.

So, again, the way nobody on this thread is willing to define what is abortion vs. murder, and when it's a fetus vs. a human being, it just proves my point. It's a gray area. If you think it's black & white, it's because you haven't thought it through. If it was really black & white, SOMEBODY would have offered a definition already, or some logical criteria.
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05-02-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Two stages are obvious:

Without a central nervous system a lump of tissue that is attached to a living being is not alive, not conscious, it feels and knows nothing.

A born live baby is a live human.

There will be many varying opinions on other stages, personally I think that if it feels pain it deserves empathy and consideration, and that doesn't just apply to humans.

If there is a choice between saving a viable human being over a non viable one, I would choose the viable one.

If the mother's life is threatened, it is her decision if she wants to give her life for a (then orphaned) baby or not.

If the fetus shows signs of severe handicaps, it is the mother's decision whether she will be able to care for such a child, or if she feels too much empathy for the disadvantaged kid to bring it into this world.

That is my personal take on it, and I have no interest in arguing about it, but you asked and I told you.

I am also fixing to leave for the day so don't expect any further posts from me today.

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05-02-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:35 PM)Dom Wrote:  That is my personal take on it, and I have no interest in arguing about it, but you asked and I told you.

I'm not arguing, in fact I agree. My personal take is that probably somewhere between 3 and 6 months a baby starts to develop rights, but that in the event of extenuating circumstances, like a baby that has defects or is a threat to the mother, that could be extended.

The ONLY point I was making is that my opinion, just like everybody else's, is just that, an opinion. We're all just drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, so it's silly to insist one line is right and another is wrong. Even the most ardent defenders of abortion will typically agree that a mother shouldn't have the choice of terminating the child's life right up until birth is completed, which means that they too are restricting a woman's right to choose at some point. They're just drawing the line in a different place.
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05-02-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 12:18 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I like the idea of considering that the unborn is a person, then the person choosing the abortion is at least thinking about it from that perspective, giving it the dignity and respect and consideration this difficult decision requires.

We don't need to dehumanise it, call it a tumor or a clump of cells.

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05-02-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:06 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:15 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Absolutely. No doubt. I heard (somewhere - can't remember) something to the tune of ' if men were the ones getting pregnant there'd be shops for abortion as handy as Starbucks. They'd be everywhere!'

This is silly. I don't dispute the premise, but even if men carried the baby you STILL have to decide when the baby becomes a separate human being with it's own right to live. I do NOT believe that if men had babies, society would accept your previous claim that it's the man's right to kill the child at any point until the child becomes a legal adult.
What does becoming a legal adult have to do with abortion??

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05-02-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:13 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 01:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  Again, murder is a legal term and you know what it means. If you don't, look it up.

The dictionary:

Murder: The killing of another human being

As I said, you have to decide WHAT is a human being.

Human Being: any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.

Homo: the genus of bipedal primates that includes modern humans and several extinct forms, distinguished by their large brains and a dependence upon tools.

Notice that even with the dictionary definition, it's still not clear, because one would argue that at 8 months an unborn fetus is clearly homo sapien, therfore, according to the dictionary, it is murder. But the dictionary doesn't help you determine when that cluster of cells becomes a homo sapien.

So, again, the way nobody on this thread is willing to define what is abortion vs. murder, and when it's a fetus vs. a human being, it just proves my point. It's a gray area. If you think it's black & white, it's because you haven't thought it through. If it was really black & white, SOMEBODY would have offered a definition already, or some logical criteria.
Wrong.
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being.

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05-02-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:01 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:06 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Drawing a "line in the sand" is necessary so a decision may be reached. Period. And Someone Has to do that - reach a decision.
And the Person who should Reach a decision would be the ONE person bearing the responsibility: The woman who is pregnant. Period.
It is absolutely No One's decision other than hers. IF she wishes to confer or take into account other opinions - that is also her Choice.

Please confirm you read my question above and your reply. You've said that since the mother bears responsibility for her children until they become legal adults, at age 18, the only person who can decide if terminating the child's life is abortion or murder is the mother. So, if a mother kills her 17 year old daughter, it is nobody's business but the mother's, and the daughter has no independent right to live unless the mother allows.

That's what you just said when I asked where you draw the line when abortion becomes murder somewhere between (a) conception, and (b) the child becoming an adult. You stated it's the mother's responsibility to decide where she draws the line.

Go away, Frank. You are retarded. No where did Witchy say that and further she rejects your notion that a 17 year old is analogous with a fetus in utero.

Sheesh.

Its bodily autonomy, you twit. It is abortion up until the point where the fetus is OUT of the woman's body. If the fetus were to get stuck halfway through, then the mother's life is in immediate danger. Sorry, mother has the trump card.

Your questions are stupid rhetoric, and your reductio ad absurdum is tiresome. SHOO FLY!

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05-02-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:04 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't care about your point; I don't care about your questions. I have deemed your questions specious and grossly rhetorical and have dismissed them as such. There is no dancing around by me at all.... If you don't like abortion then don't have one.

Well then, it's a good thing you don't care what I think. Because I think you're an idiot. You just said 'if you don't like abortion, don't have one', but when I asked you to define WHAT an abortion actually is, you were left speechless, dismissed the question as 'specious and grossly rhetorical', etc. If you, yourself, cannot get around what's an abortion and what's murder, then you're ill equipped to tell others whether abortion is moral or not since you haven't even decided what it is!

Did I call you an idiot? I did dismiss your list of specious and largely rhetorical questions along with your latest attempt to goad me into a defensive situation. You are being quite disingenuous in your implication that you only asked one (1) question, you indeed asked several.

I'm quite sorry to inform you, I have no cause to accept a throw down of meaningless words drawn together by you under the guise of discussion. Especially when it is rather self evident you do not wish to discuss but attack and twist others words to give yourself some mental lift of abject superiority. A tactic I have observed you use in other areas of this forum and I have no use to engage in.

In other words. Your questions and you aren't worth my time.


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