Abortion, choice or murder?
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05-02-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
You guys are more or less correct that men [should] have no real say in abortion. The final decision rests with the female. Which is why I argue that men should have a say in child support, which we talked about in a different thread months ago. But that is a topic for a different time and place (e.g. the thread we already had for it...).

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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05-02-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Momsurroundedbyboys, frankksj is simply a contrarian who brings up specious arguments (as you point out) in an attempt to make its points. It also claims to be a libertarian which one would think would make it accepting of abortion. I think it does accept abortion but seems willing for the state to set limits on it. Odd for a libertarian but consistent with its belief that it knows what is correct.

I came close to defining murder and abortion in an overly aggressive way regarding bullets to the brain and it and me. I avoided it because it was overly aggressive.

When is my invite to join the choir, with the limitations I have already expressed.
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05-02-2014, 03:45 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 03:32 PM)JAH Wrote:  Momsurroundedbyboys, frankksj is simply a contrarian who brings up specious arguments (as you point out) in an attempt to make its points. It also claims to be a libertarian which one would think would make it accepting of abortion. I think it does accept abortion but seems willing for the state to set limits on it. Odd for a libertarian but consistent with its belief that it knows what is correct.

I came close to defining murder and abortion in an overly aggressive way regarding bullets to the brain and it and me. I avoided it because it was overly aggressive.

When is my invite to join the choir, with the limitations I have already expressed.

Thank you, but I am well aquatinted with him and oft disingenuous approach, e.g., goal-post moving, twisting and baiting replies, etc. It's a tactic normally reserved by people with no probative argument and just like the idea of discourse.

Your invite is in the mail. Wink


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05-02-2014, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 03:51 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 03:32 PM)JAH Wrote:  Odd for a libertarian but consistent with its belief that it knows what is correct.

As always, you got it precisely backwards. I did NOT claim to know what is correct, to the contrary, I explicitly said I do not have an answer, I can only state an opinion, and my opinion is just that an opinion, and, as I'd be drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, I have no right to say someone else is right or wrong for drawing the line somewhere else.

By contrast, WitchSabrina, CathyM, MomSurroundedByBoys, et al, lacked any shred of self awareness or humility and insisted that THEIR opinion and line in the sand is the only one. The really pathetic part is that MomSurroundedByBoys was adamant her line in the sand was the right one, YET, when I asked her where she drew the line, she couldn't answer!!! It's comical to attack someone for stepping over your line, when you yourself don't even know where you drew your own line!

I asked her if it's still abortion right up until the moment of delivery, and she was unable to respond. So, if she hasn't made up her mind when abortion becomes murder, how can she criticize other for disagreeing with her?!!?# Duh.

Now, CathyM went on the record and at least stated where she drew her line in the sand, that it's a mother's choice "up until the point where the fetus is OUT of the woman's body." So, according to Cathy, while the delivery is ongoing, once the head comes out, the mother has the right to ask the doctor to hold up a mirror so she can see what the baby looks like, and then decide to abort or not. Cathy says it's no longer abortion and becomes murder once the fetus is OUT.

But the difference is Cathy won't accept that this is just an opinion, and other women think differently. She doesn't say "I think it's a legal abortion until...". No, she emphasizes that her arbitrary line is the only viable one, even though a lot of feminists would argue the line should be drawn earlier, such as after the 2nd trimester.

Yes, this does boil down to the same issue that libertarians always have. We look at it with logic and reason and accept that everyone has different opinions, and our opinions are no more valid than anybody else's, so we have no right to force them on others. As opposed to the non-libertarians in this thread who all insist their opinion is the ONLY correct one, which makes them feel justified in forcing their opinion on others.

And it's not that we're trying to be contrariens. It's just that this way of thinking is not something anybody is instinctively born with. We're all born to think we're right, everyone else is wrong, might makes right, so if we have the power we can force everybody else to do it our way. Libertarianism is a complete 180 from that which is why it seems contrarian. This is why what we consider black & white issues, like drug policies, non-libertarians see as gray, and what we see as gray, like abortion, non-libertarians see as black & white.
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05-02-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 12:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Admittedly I am often bemused by the fact men seem to think they have the right, or dare I suggest, duty to weigh in on this topic at all

Hear that boys? Everybody with a penis get out. Women don't need our views on the topic, which I guess also includes men who support it. I'm sure since women have sooo much influence over how the world works, they won't need a man to weigh in at any point.
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05-02-2014, 04:29 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 04:35 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 03:49 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Admittedly I am often bemused by the fact men seem to think they have the right, or dare I suggest, duty to weigh in on this topic at all

Hear that boys? Everybody with a penis get out. Women don't need our views on the topic, which I guess also includes men who support it. I'm sure since women have sooo much influence over how the world works, they won't need a man to weigh in at any point.

I don't immerse myself in discussions about the prostate.

I do not care if you support it or are against it. For centuries now women have been given a pat on the head and told to "be silent" on most if not all male dominated topics. Yet, on this one topic that really hasn't a thing to do with men at all since you can't become pregnant, you're all full opinions and sincerely seemed hurt to be shut out.

Going further what other female related topics do you wish to opine on? Do you want to discuss if I use a pad or tampon? Which brand do you think will be most absorbent? Which kind wouid you prefer I use, since you are a man and seem to imply that thing between your legs gives providence to discuss issues that I feel are best left to women to decide for ourselves.

Do you see how ludicrous you sound?

Shall I discuss with you when you eventually develop cancer of the prostate as most men do by a certain age do that you should just have the the thing cut out? This without any regard to your quality of life or erectile function?

How about the discussion that birth control pills are being restricted by some insurance companies while Viagra is handed out at rock-bottom prices like chicklets?

Quite honestly, and I really don't mean to sound or seem disrespectful but I've had quite enough of being told or questioned by men about issues regarding my body and how it functions. This is not limited to being the butt of PMS jokes or being told by advertisers to have a happy fucking period.

/hyperbolic rant


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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05-02-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, reread Cathym112's actual post. Your characterization of it is far from factual. Her post indicated that if at the moment of birth the mother's life was at risk and killing the baby (yes) was required to save the mother that the mother's life had precedent. You continually choose to make a false characterization of what others say, as you also make false equivalences.

Your second question to Momsurroundedbyboys was a question which had been discussed with some detail and consideration by other posters, admittedly with some flippancy here and there.

Address the basic consensus here that it should be the mothers/families choice. You are free to disagree but it does go against your stated libertarian beliefs. And please don't use your usual techniques. They are boring and distracting.
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05-02-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Momsurroundedbyboys, you promised me I could be in the woman's choir but your last post made me fearful I might not make it. Please tell me I am still in. I would be most hurt if I was not.

While I think your above post was a bit harsh I do accept the general idea of it. Men do not in general acknowledge the adverse effects their dominance has on society or the body politic. I arrogantly think I may which can be a failing in itself.

I will reiterate abortion is left to the mother.
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05-02-2014, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2014 05:00 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I agree that men have no right to control the decision, but I think discounting their opinion for the reason that they are men is a little messed up. Especially on a topic where people, both men and women, feel that human lives are at stake.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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05-02-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Thanks, JAH,

I'm well aware of his tactics. It takes the place of actual intelligence or worthwhile conversation.

As I mentioned before - I had to abort my son late term because he had died in utero. His decaying body was poisoning my blood.

My son did not recieve a death certificate because he was never alive.

Abortion is not murder. It is bodily autonomy. The same way a parent should never be forced to give their kidney to their child, the fetus may not use my body for nurishment, safety or otherwise put my health at risk without my consent.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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