Abortion, choice or murder?
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05-02-2014, 05:13 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Men can have an opinion but their opinion is truly irrelevant. Just like my opinion is irrelevant if I am not the one choosing. Every time a person has to decide whether or not to have an abortion and when, her opinion is the only opinion that counts.

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05-02-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 04:48 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I agree that men have no right to control the decision, but I think discounting their opinion for the reason that they are men is a little messed up.

And yet for centuries women have been told that our opinion is worthless because we don't have a "mind for such things," including our own health issues.

When a government puts together a panal of "experts" to discuss women's reproductive rights (as was done several years ago) and not one woman is included...what are they saying again about our opinion?

Yes, in your very words its "messed up." In areas of this country even today women are routinely excused from discussing their own reproductive health with their own elected officials.

I know I can't really stop men from talking about this topic or any other female related topic. I'm really ok with that...

I'm just getting tired of it, especially when I've had to don a flack jacket to walk a pregnant women from the street into a clinic to exercise her right to chose and there weren't any men around putting on those jackets. Except for the security guard inside, who hid behind the door as we approached.

I admit I'm battle weary.


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05-02-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Really, I think it more accurate to say that everybody else's opinion is irrelevant aside from the person who is making the decision. I don't imagine any of you women feel that another woman's opinion on the matter should influence your choice, correct? Singling out men (as a group) is unnecessary...and like I said, messed up.

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05-02-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 05:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Really, I think it more accurate to say that everybody else's opinion is irrelevant aside from the person who is making the decision. I don't imagine any of you women feel that another woman's opinion on the matter should influence your choice, correct? Singling out men (as a group) is unnecessary...and like I said, messed up.

I wouid be more likely to listen to the opinion of a woman -- especially if she has had an abortion and could offer helpful advice -- even if they were against it. I really don't mind being excluded (as a group) from men's health issues at all -- and you guys do have your own serious ones to contend with.

I am also are more likely to read a book penned by a woman on a women's health issue like perimenopause, or pregnancy than I would one written by a man...even if the man is a doctor.

There are plenty of Heath issues shared by both that we can reach out and discuss. They aren't male or female issues.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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05-02-2014, 05:59 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
My thoughts: I can see the pro life side in that at some the fetus changes from a clump of cells into a self aware human being that I believe has a right to live. A zygote, however, is not a human being and can be aborted.

I'd allow first trimester abortions. That's fine in case contraception fails. And fo course I'd allow abortions in the cases of rape, incest and when the woman's life is in danger. Second, third trimester, and partial birth abortions I would not legalize.

The good news is that abortion rates are down in the US, primarily due to the judicious use of contraception. I'd say is the wisest choice.

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05-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 04:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 03:49 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Hear that boys? Everybody with a penis get out. Women don't need our views on the topic, which I guess also includes men who support it. I'm sure since women have sooo much influence over how the world works, they won't need a man to weigh in at any point.

I don't immerse myself in discussions about the prostate.

I do not care if you support it or are against it. For centuries now women have been given a pat on the head and told to "be silent" on most if not all male dominated topics. Yet, on this one topic that really hasn't a thing to do with men at all since you can't become pregnant, you're all full opinions and sincerely seemed hurt to be shut out.

Going further what other female related topics do you wish to opine on? Do you want to discuss if I use a pad or tampon? Which brand do you think will be most absorbent? Which kind wouid you prefer I use, since you are a man and seem to imply that thing between your legs gives providence to discuss issues that I feel are best left to women to decide for ourselves.

Do you see how ludicrous you sound?

Shall I discuss with you when you eventually develop cancer of the prostate as most men do by a certain age do that you should just have the the thing cut out? This without any regard to your quality of life or erectile function?

How about the discussion that birth control pills are being restricted by some insurance companies while Viagra is handed out at rock-bottom prices like chicklets?

Quite honestly, and I really don't mean to sound or seem disrespectful but I've had quite enough of being told or questioned by men about issues regarding my body and how it functions. This is not limited to being the butt of PMS jokes or being told by advertisers to have a happy fucking period.

/hyperbolic rant

I didn't even give my opinion on the topic, so don't put a bunch of words in my mouth and then ask "Do you see how ludicrous you sound?", like I've opined on it at all...

I understand that men have no right to make decisions on this topic. We do, however, still have the right to voice opinion on the topic. You can't just say "GTFO, this doesn't concern you" (paraphrased a little..) I just thought I'd point out that when you remove 50% of the population from the discussion, you might have a more difficult time changing things, especially when the half of the population that you want to exclude hold the majority of decision making power through the world.

I'm "pro-choice" btw. I also hope to see more rights equality around the world. But, I also see that since we aren't as far along in equal rights as we should be, removing men from the discussion is probably not a great strategy.
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05-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 04:34 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, reread Cathym112's actual post. Your characterization of it is far from factual.

I quoted Cathy's position verbatim. I asked at what point does it go from being legal abortion to illegal murder, and she replied:

It is abortion up until the point where the fetus is OUT of the woman's body.

Those are Cathy's actual, verbatim words.

(05-02-2014 04:34 PM)JAH Wrote:  Address the basic consensus here that it should be the mothers/families choice.

I'm sorry, not only do I not see a consensus, frankly I don't see very many people even stating an opinion. Cathy WAS willing to state her opinion and say that she felt a mother was allowed to abort the baby up until it the delivery was complete. I'm assuming she defines that as being when the baby's fully cleared the womb, although she could mean up until the umbilical cord is severed.

However, the others, like MomSurroundedByBoys, seem to not even know what they believe. I've asked her repeatedly when a mother's right to choose abortion ends, and she can't come up with an answer. Surely, she doesn't feel it's indefinite. I doubt she's arguing that a mother indefinitely has the right to kill her child regardless of the age. Surely, she feels that if a mother kills an 18 year old child, that is murder, and not just a "choice". So she knows that a line must be drawn somewhere. But she hasn't figured out yet where to draw it.

I think it's pathetic to insist someone is wrong for not respecting your line in the sand if you don't even know where you drew it.
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05-02-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:09 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 04:34 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, reread Cathym112's actual post. Your characterization of it is far from factual.

I quoted Cathy's position verbatim. I asked at what point does it go from being legal abortion to illegal murder, and she replied:

It is abortion up until the point where the fetus is OUT of the woman's body.

Those are Cathy's actual, verbatim words.

(05-02-2014 04:34 PM)JAH Wrote:  Address the basic consensus here that it should be the mothers/families choice.

I'm sorry, not only do I not see a consensus, frankly I don't see very many people even stating an opinion. Cathy WAS willing to state her opinion and say that she felt a mother was allowed to abort the baby up until it the delivery was complete. I'm assuming she defines that as being when the baby's fully cleared the womb, although she could mean up until the umbilical cord is severed.

However, the others, like MomSurroundedByBoys, seem to not even know what they believe. I've asked her repeatedly when a mother's right to choose abortion ends, and she can't come up with an answer. Surely, she doesn't feel it's indefinite. I doubt she's arguing that a mother indefinitely has the right to kill her child regardless of the age. Surely, she feels that if a mother kills an 18 year old child, that is murder, and not just a "choice". So she knows that a line must be drawn somewhere. But she hasn't figured out yet where to draw it.

I think it's pathetic to insist someone is wrong for not respecting your line in the sand if you don't even know where you drew it.

Awesome, frank. Those are my words. Good job on reading the entire thing though, which specifically expands on it, you twit.

Are you brain damaged? Why do you insist on making an ADULT (an 18 year old "child" is in fact an adult) analogous with a fetus in utero.

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05-02-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 05:52 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I really don't mind being excluded (as a group) from men's health issues at all -- and you guys do have your own serious ones to contend with.

Let's see if you really mean that. Let's take testosterone, growth hormone and other performance enhancing drugs that men take to address the hormonal decline as men age.

At present, such supplements are generally controlled substances, just like narcotics, and female congressmen are allowed to vote on the issue. So, do you feel female congressman should be excused from such votes since they have no business deciding male health issues and telling men what they can and cannot do with their bodies?

Of course you're going to refuse to answer and say it's a ludicrous question. And, that will just prove the hypocrisy of your position. For 100 years women HAVE been given a vote to make decisions about what men can and cannot do with their bodies. So your position is inconsistent and non-reciprocal. My position, however, is consistent and reciprocal. BOTH men and women can decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies at all times. Nobody else has a say in what an individual decides to do with his body.

The only gray area for me is it's hard to say precisely when a fetus goes from being a part of the woman's body, so it's the woman's choice alone, to being a separate individual with his own rights. For that I don't have a good answer. It's a complicated and very subjective issue, and we're all just making arbitrary decisions.
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05-02-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Awesome, frank. Those are my words. Good job on reading the entire thing though, which specifically expands on it, you twit.

I dare you to copy/paste when you expanded your position to state at what point a healthy fetus could be aborted. The ONLY line you drew was 'until the fetus is out of the body'. That's it.

Are you now saying that you feel a mother does NOT have the right to abort a healthy baby right up until birth? If that's what you're saying, then please clarify, up until what point does a mother have the right to abort, if there are no health consequences?
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