Abortion, choice or murder?
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05-02-2014, 06:41 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:09 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 04:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  /hyperbolic rant

I didn't even give my opinion on the topic, so don't put a bunch of words in my mouth and then ask "Do you see how ludicrous you sound?", like I've opined on it at all...

I understand that men have no right to make decisions on this topic. We do, however, still have the right to voice opinion on the topic. You can't just say "GTFO, this doesn't concern you" (paraphrased a little..) I just thought I'd point out that when you remove 50% of the population from the discussion, you might have a more difficult time changing things, especially when the half of the population that you want to exclude hold the majority of decision making power through the world.

I'm "pro-choice" btw. I also hope to see more rights equality around the world. But, I also see that since we aren't as far along in equal rights as we should be, removing men from the discussion is probably not a great strategy.

My words were hyperbolic I do apologize to you and all the other men who felt insulted by the harshness of them.

It's just as I look back to my childhood even, when women (more than 50% of the populous) were routinely excluded by men (I'm not really that old) from the discussion of their own reproductive rights,

When the pill was first offered in the early 1960s, doctors routinely only prescribed them to married women and only with their husband's permission. Later, some doctors refused to give them for fear it would encourage promiscuous behavior. This is also why free clinics became increasingly popular.

My own father, while in the navy had to offer his "blessing" before a doctor wouid give my mom a script because the doctor felt he should know she was doing it.

For years and even today law-makers try to usurp the intent of Roe V Wade, under the guise of public safety forcing women to travel sometimes to neighboring states to practice again their right to choice. For some it can mean traveling hundreds of miles.

It's not right this happened (I don't blame you or any man today for this). I guess younger women are more willing to listen to you guys because they don't know or understand the way it used to be and yes I admit when it comes to this I'm jaded and also live with a housefull of men.

And I'm not even getting into the religious ideas at all and yes that's probably part of it still.

Rest assured when I enter menopause I probably restrain myself from voicing my opinion on this topic all together.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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05-02-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 05:52 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I really don't mind being excluded (as a group) from men's health issues at all -- and you guys do have your own serious ones to contend with.

Let's see if you really mean that. Let's take testosterone, growth hormone and other performance enhancing drugs that men take to address the hormonal decline as men age.

At present, such supplements are generally controlled substances, just like narcotics, and female congressmen are allowed to vote on the issue. So, do you feel female congressman should be excused from such votes since they have no business deciding male health issues and telling men what they can and cannot do with their bodies?

Of course you're going to refuse to answer and say it's a ludicrous question. And, that will just prove the hypocrisy of your position. For 100 years women HAVE been given a vote to make decisions about what men can and cannot do with their bodies. So your position is inconsistent and non-reciprocal. My position, however, is consistent and reciprocal. BOTH men and women can decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies at all times. Nobody else has a say in what an individual decides to do with his body.

The only gray area for me is it's hard to say precisely when a fetus goes from being a part of the woman's body, so it's the woman's choice alone, to being a separate individual with his own rights. For that I don't have a good answer. It's a complicated and very subjective issue, and we're all just making arbitrary decisions.

If I were a lawmaker, I would gladly recuse myself from any all discussion involving men's health issues and gladly abstain from voting.

If I had an option to vote (in a general election, which would never happen), I wouid likely ask my husband for his opinion and vote his conscience rather than my thoughts on a subject I've no opinion on. This wouid be as opposed to sitting out an entire election.

As I've already stated, when I do enter menopause I haven't any qualms about keeping my opinion to myself on abortion and reproductive rights choices.

I believe I am incredibly consistent.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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05-02-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  When the pill was first offered in the early 1960s, doctors routinely only prescribed them to married women and only with their husband's permission.

I agree that that is barbaric. But, I'm still waiting for you to clarify if you REALLY are pro-choice... Do you REALLY feel that every individual should be able to decide for herself what she does with her body, including making choices that are not socially acceptable, like taking drugs or prostituting her body?

Or, are you 'pro-multiple-choice', meaning you feel men and women should be given a list of actions that are and are not acceptable things to do with their bodies?

Personally, I am 100% pro-choice, even when the choice is something I find disturbing.
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05-02-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 02:28 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Its bodily autonomy, you twit. It is abortion up until the point where the fetus is OUT of the woman's body. If the fetus were to get stuck halfway through, then the mother's life is in immediate danger. Sorry, mother has the trump card.

Your questions are stupid rhetoric, and your reductio ad absurdum is tiresome. SHOO FLY!

Frank, it's the very next statement. You drive me insane. You are a brain damaged individual

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-02-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, you should be proud you have derailed what had been a civil and informative discussion of a serious subject with your useless rantings. Rantings that tend to amount to ME! ME! ME!, brilliant in their uselessness and stupidity.
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05-02-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:03 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Your questions are stupid rhetoric, and your reductio ad absurdum is tiresome. SHOO FLY!

Oops, you're confused again. The topic of this thread is abortion. My question to you was "up until what point does a mother have the right to abort, if there are no health consequences?" That is not reductio ad absordum. That is not rhetoric. The whole thread is debating what is legal abortion vs. criminal murder. That question is simply asking your opinion on the topic at hand. How can you defend a woman's legal right to get an abortion if you haven't decided yet what is a legal abortion?
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05-02-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 06:29 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 06:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Awesome, frank. Those are my words. Good job on reading the entire thing though, which specifically expands on it, you twit.

I dare you to copy/paste when you expanded your position to state at what point a healthy fetus could be aborted. The ONLY line you drew was 'until the fetus is out of the body'. That's it.

Are you now saying that you feel a mother does NOT have the right to abort a healthy baby right up until birth? If that's what you're saying, then please clarify, up until what point does a mother have the right to abort, if there are no health consequences?

You made a moronic rhetoric that had no actual baring on the conversation. A mother can abort if she doesn't like the eye color or some shit like that. Which doesn't even make any sense since most babies without a lot of melanin are born with BLUE eyes.

It's not even probable. Name one women who wanted her baby dead as a result of eye color preference. So my statement remains the same.

It's about bodily autonomy. When the fetus is out, bodily autonomy NO LONGER APPLIES.

We done now?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-02-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:10 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 07:03 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Your questions are stupid rhetoric, and your reductio ad absurdum is tiresome. SHOO FLY!

Oops, you're confused again. The topic of this thread is abortion. My question to you was "up until what point does a mother have the right to abort, if there are no health consequences?" That is not reductio ad absordum. That is not rhetoric. The whole thread is debating what is legal abortion vs. criminal murder. That question is simply asking your opinion on the topic at hand. How can you defend a woman's legal right to get an abortion if you haven't decided yet what is a legal abortion?

Since I've had a late term abortion and you haven't, I'm going to ask you to STFU.

I've already answered this. Many times over. An abortion is not murder up until the pregnancy has ended by the fetus coming out of the woman's body. Abortion is not murder. It's te right to bodily autonomy.

Should the government be able to force you to donate your kidney to your living child if he were to need one? Why not? You knew the risk of sex was a child, and that children have the risk of sickness including but not limited to kidney failure. The child has a right to live, after all.

Now, I know what you are thinking..., no one should be able to use your body without your consent? Thank you. Same concept.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-02-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:06 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, you should be proud you have derailed what had been a civil and informative discussion of a serious subject with your useless rantings. Rantings that tend to amount to ME! ME! ME!, brilliant in their uselessness and stupidity.

It's because I think this is exactly the same issue as all the other threads. Everybody has an opinion about what is socially acceptable vs. not acceptable. Yet, rather than admitting that these are all just arbitrary decisions, you guys seem to be 100% convinced that wherever you draw the line in the sand is the only possible place it could be drawn, and anybody who crosses your imaginary line should be locked up.

You'll say you're "pro-choice", but then if a woman says "my choice is to shoot heroin and prostitute myself", suddenly you're all intervening telling her it's not her choice anymore--it's up to whatever political party has the majority to decide for her what she can do with her body. BUT, when the role is reversed, and you're on the receiving end because the ruling political party disagrees with you and is preventing you from making a choice you deem acceptable (like abortion) then you scream bloody murder that you're being denied choice. In other words, you're ONLY pro-choice when the OTHER side has the club, when YOUR side has the club, then you're pro-multiple-choice.
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05-02-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:11 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Name one women who wanted her baby dead as a result of eye color preference.

Actually there are some women who, right after giving birth, throw the baby in a dumpster or try to flush it down a toilet. Naturally they do not specify WHY they did that. My question was simply if, up until the moment of birth, the woman should be able to elect to abort a healthy fetus. You've reiterated again the answer is yes, and that it's the moment the baby is out of the womb that the woman cannot make that choice anymore.

Fine, I'm not disputing that. Yes, we're done. Like I said, I don't have the answer where to draw the line, so I am in no position to tell you that you drew it in the wrong place. All I was trying to do is show that you all are drawing arbitrary lines.
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