Abortion, choice or murder?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-02-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, I will not waste the time finding the specific post which was pages ago where you chose to draw your arbitrary line, which if I remember was in the first trimester, and you did not then suggest that later was acceptable if the woman's health was at risk. So we all accept arbitrary lines, which has been generally been conceeded in this thread. This has been a discussion of those lines including comments by people who have made the decision to abort, informative for all. You have chosen to be disruptive and annoying, which is typical for you.

Classic also is your comment to me about heroin use and prostitution. I said nothing here ever about either and while not advocating either I have no problem with either. You deflect arguments with those who do not slavishly agree with you by mischaracterizing what they say. An absolutely brilliant discussion tool.

You constantly complain about others not answering your questions, what about you, when asked a serious question you more often than not choose to deflect it into by altering it from the original.

You bring up things like those who abandon their babies doing things like flushing them down toilets or throwing them in the garbage. This is an outlier and speaks more to the desperation of the mother than anything else and should be understood as such. If you want to know, what would have been a younger sibling of mine was flushed down the toilet when my mother miscarried early in a pregnancy. It was at least 60 years ago but I remember my mother being despondent for some time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
WOW! I walk away for two days! This is what I come back to! ; )

I have to agree with the ladies, this is a choice best left to them. And since I can't make the choice for them, nor should I, I can at least help to make it possible for them to have the choice.
After 16 pages I have come to the decision that pro choice is the only way to go.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like trogit's post
05-02-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 08:01 PM)JAH Wrote:  So we all accept arbitrary lines, which has been generally been conceeded in this thread

I disagree completely. In fact, it feels like I'm the only one conceding it. I clearly stated that my opinion about when abortion becomes murder is just an opinion. It's a moral, subjective decision, drawing an arbitrary line in the sand. Every culture and society feels differently. So, even though I personally imagine somewhere between 3 and 6 months is a reasonable cut off for aborting a healthy fetus that poses no health risk to the mother, I admit that my cutoff is arbitrary, and others may disagree. Maybe in more religious areas they move the cutoff closer to the moment of conception, maybe in other areas they move it closer to the date of birth. Fine. As always, I think this is a moral, judgement call that should be made at the local level because there is no right answer, and we're all just drawing arbitrary lines.

I did NOT see others in this thread take this position. IMO, most seems to believe that if, say, in Mississippi they decide to draw the line at 1 week after conception, then the people of Mississippi are simply backward and ignorant and the federal government needs to intervene, because the line must actually be drawn at 6 months (or 9 months, or whatever). In fact, many on this thread, wouldn't even say where they were drawing the line. I could never get it out of MomSurroundedByBoys what specifically was, in her mind, the cutoff for an elective abortion. But she seemed adamant that if somebody else picked a cutoff different from hers, they were wrong.

Are you seriously saying that there were others in this thread arguing that it's a judgement call, we're all drawing arbitrary lines, so it needs to be left up to local communities to decide what their conscience is?

(05-02-2014 08:01 PM)JAH Wrote:  when asked a serious question you more often than not choose to deflect it into by altering it from the original.

This is the 2nd time in as many days you've made a broad accusation that I refuse to answer questions. Yesterday I challenged you to come up with one specific example. You didn't. I suggest you stop repeating the claim if you can't think of even one example.

(05-02-2014 08:01 PM)JAH Wrote:  You bring up things like those who abandon their babies doing things like flushing them down toilets or throwing them in the garbage. This is an outlier and speaks more to the desperation of the mother...

Look, I'm sorry for what your mother went through. When I bring up fringe cases like that, I am NOT trying to be contrarian, nor argumentative. All I'm responding to people stating opinions and insisting that their opinion is the only valid one. I'm pointing out that we all have different opinions, and what's right for one person isn't right for another, so we shouldn't presume to know how other should live their lives and force them. Instead give them free will.

This debate was along the same lines. I stated my opinion about the morality of abortion, that aborting a healthy fetus up until 3 or 6 months is probably okay, and if there's a health problem for the baby or mother, a doctor could extend that. BUT, maybe in other regions or cultures they draw the line somewhere else. Fine. I'm not going to impose my line on anybody else because I have no logical justification for my line anyway.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2014, 10:14 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:33 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

"some liquid" = dog jizz

You must have just swallowed.

Give it a rest.Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2014, 10:17 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:26 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  But there is an objectively measurable point: prior to the formation of a nervous system.
So you have taken a step back from viability?

No, there is an ethical gray area between the formation of a brain/nervous sytsem and viability because the fetus can feel pain.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:04 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't care about your point; I don't care about your questions. I have deemed your questions specious and grossly rhetorical and have dismissed them as such. There is no dancing around by me at all.... If you don't like abortion then don't have one.

Well then, it's a good thing you don't care what I think. Because I think you're an idiot. You just said 'if you don't like abortion, don't have one', but when I asked you to define WHAT an abortion actually is, you were left speechless, dismissed the question as 'specious and grossly rhetorical', etc. If you, yourself, cannot get around what's an abortion and what's murder, then you're ill equipped to tell others whether abortion is moral or not since you haven't even decided what it is!

You are being an idiot here. The line of personhood at birth, and therefore murder, is already drawn. Your nitpicking is specious. And annoying.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
05-02-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 10:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are being an idiot here. The line of personhood at birth, and therefore murder, is already drawn. Your nitpicking is specious. And annoying.

If you're right, and Momsurroundedbyboys had in fact already stated that she believed the point where a woman should no longer be able to terminate a healthy fetus that posed no medical risk is "at birth", then it's an honest mistake that I missed that. However, when I asked her that very obvious, basic question of where she draws the line, she should have just said "at birth" and been done with it. 2 words would have sufficed. Instead she sent paragraphs of explanations why she refused to answer the question, leading me to believe she did NOT actually already specify where she drew the line.

However, I want to point out that in most liberal societies, that's drawing the line too far. Sweden is arguably the most liberal country, and they only allow elective abortion up until 18 weeks, and no abortion at all after 22 weeks, even for health reasons. And in Denmark, elective abortion is only allowed until 12 weeks! So their position that elective abortion should be unrestricted all the way to birth is drawing the line further than most liberals.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, I asked on another thread who owned the railways and major highways in Switzerland and received no answer, does that suffice as a response to you not answering direct questions. There are others but it would be boring to search them out.

Again you intruded into what was well thought out and reasonable discussion on abortion with bullshit. You should be ashamed and shunned.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 10:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 07:26 AM)wazzel Wrote:  So you have taken a step back from viability?

No, there is an ethical gray area between the formation of a brain/nervous sytsem and viability because the fetus can feel pain.

Fair enough.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Why do men like Frank stomp all over the internet pushing their agenda for No Abortion? Why can't they just keep their politics to themselves?

Frank, you aren't interested in discussing ANYthing. Your mind is made up on the subject of abortion. So WHY are you here? You'd not know a rational response if it walked up and smacked you in the face.
Why not just type up a simple sentence like : I'm against abortion. And leave it at that? Why is this something you try to debate? Why should ANYone give a rat's ass what your ideas or opinions are on the subject of abortion?

Is this your quest? Tripping around on the internet, forum after forum pitching your doom and gloom on how abortion is wrong? What do you hope to achieve? Maybe you're one of those assholes who scream on forums "Oh Woe is ME Abortion is WRONG WRONG!" then you go out and bomb abortion clinics and kill people.

good grief.

I tried to catch up and read through Frank's other responses from when I left off yesterday...but I just can't read all that tripe.

Such a tired argument of extreme goal post scooting......I can't even.....

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: