Abortion, choice or murder?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
06-02-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I'm only glancing at most of what frank is saying, mostly because the volume of it makes me disinterested...but I was under the impression that he was pro choice? Correct my if I'm wrong frank.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 11:19 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, I asked on another thread who owned the railways and major highways in Switzerland and received no answer, does that suffice as a response to you not answering direct questions. There are others but it would be boring to search them out.

Again you intruded into what was well thought out and reasonable discussion on abortion with bullshit. You should be ashamed and shunned.

I'm thrilled you finally addressed this. It shows the desperation of your argument. In a previous post I acknowledged that around the 1920's and 30's, the handful of places that had free market transportation all switched to government run. Even in places like Hong Kong, designed to be an experiment in pure free-market capitalism, roads and rail are provided by the government. And the handful of places that tried alleged "privatization", like British Rail, never went back to free market and all retained government control. So, I honestly thought your question was rhetorical since I already answered it directly that the government owns Switzerland's rails and highways. I wasn't dodging anything. I certainly wasn't backed into a corner on that.

Now, let's compare that to the question in this thread....

MomSurroundedByBoys said she believes a woman has a right to choose if she will keep or abort her baby, and nobody else has a say. Therefore, I asked the one all-important question that determines everything: "Until when, and under what circumstances?" See, even most right-wing religious conservatives would concede that if a woman was raped and went to the hospital, she should be offered a shot to abort any pregnancy. Whereas, most liberals would say it's the mother's right only until the 1st or 2nd trimester, after which somebody else has to decide. So, the only difference between pro-life conservatives and pro-choice liberals is where they move the date. So, asking "Where do you draw the line?" actually IS the most obvious, basic, and defining question. Yet, she ran from the question and refused to answer. Maybe she drew the line at 1 week. In which case, she'd actually be considered a "pro-lifer". Maybe she draws it at the 1st or 2nd trimester, in which case she's a typical liberal. Maybe she draws it at the moment of birth, in which case she's actually a fringe.

Consider... In a thread about abortion where everybody is expressing strong views, I asked the obvious, basic question "What is abortion, and when do you draw the line between abortion and murder?" And you insist that by asking such an offensive question, I "derailed" an otherwise productive debate on abortion. I disagree completely. If you guys are unwilling to answer that question, then you haven't even decided yet what abortion actually is, and you need to step back and decide where you draw the line and why before you can tell other people to stop crossing over the line. That's not "derailing" the thread. That's the point of healthy debate. And it's nothing like your silly, rhetorical question about Swiss rail that was uncontroversial, and which I already answered anyway.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 09:17 AM by wazzel.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:02 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I'm only glancing at most of what frank is saying, mostly because the volume of it makes me disinterested...but I was under the impression that he was pro choice? Correct my if I'm wrong frank.

From what I have read I would agree with that assesment of Frank's position. I'm only glancing also. I don't know what his history is since I just showed up and do not know if he has a history of poking people and that has carried over. I do agree that the point at which people view abortion as switching from acceptiable to un-acceptable is arbitraty based on cultural and personal biases. There is not a point where everyone will agree it is morally acceptable. Morals are themsleves subjective.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes wazzel's post
06-02-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:02 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I'm only glancing at most of what frank is saying, mostly because the volume of it makes me disinterested...but I was under the impression that he was pro choice? Correct my if I'm wrong frank.

IMO, I'm the only one this thread who IS pro choice. Both liberals and conservatives, imo, are on the same side of the issue. They BOTH believe a woman actually does NOT have the right to choose what to do with her body and reproductive organs, that she ONLY can use them for approved activities. The only thing liberals and conservatives disagree over is where they draw arbitrary lines.

Consider that most states have laws banning women from having high-risk deliveries at home with midwives. And it's actually the self-proclaimed "pro-choicers", not the "pro-lifers" who are behind this ban. So, BOTH sides actually are not pro-choice at all. They both favor a system where politicians, who are mostly men, give a woman a list of what she can and cannot do with her reproductive system. BOTH sides generally agree that a woman can elect to abort the pregnancy up till some point with restrictions: pro-lifers generally pick a low number, like '1 week', during which a woman can get a shot or a pill to terminate the pregnancy. Some add restrictions that it should only be in case of rape. Most pro-choicers pick a higher number, like 12 or 18 weeks, and have different restrictions, like 'only if health is threatened before 22 weeks'. Some fringe on the right argue that the line is drawn the moment the egg is fertilized. And a few fringe on the left, like Cathy and MomSurroundedByBoys, argue the line for an elective abortion is the moment of birth.

IMO, the pro-choice rhetoric is ridiculous. If a woman decides to delivery a high-risk baby through a mid-wife, suddenly they'll argue the state needs to intervene to defend the right of the unborn. Which is the EXACT SAME justification they criticize the pro-lifers for making. And, if a woman uses her reproductive system in an unapproved manner, like drug mules commonly do, then BOTH sides agree the woman should be restrained and, in effect, "raped" by men to get the drugs out, and then locked in jail for using her reproductive system in an unapproved manner.

I am TRULY a pro-choicers. A woman's body. A woman's choice. Period. Under all circumstances. The only gray area is when a fetus is no longer part of a woman's body and becomes it's own individual with a right to live. For that, as I've said, I don't have any logical answer. We're all just taking guesses, and I arbitrarily draw the line at 3-6 months, but concede that different societies and cultures draw the line differently. So if, in conservative areas like Mississippi, they draw the line at 1 week, and in other areas they draw the line at birth, even though, imo, drawing the line at birth is extreme and cruel, I concede it's subjective and feel it's up to each local community to decide.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 09:39 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:21 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Consider that most states have laws banning women from having high-risk deliveries at home with midwives.

Which states and please cite the law. Making shit up to prove your point doesn't count. And banning direct-entry midwives - which is essentially practicing medicine without a formal education or license - is not banning home birth.

Further, in those states that ban direct-entry midwives, do NOT ban Certified Professional Midwives, and there is certainly no stipulation for "high risk pregnancies"

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
My god frank, you talk/write a lot.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Adrianime's post
06-02-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:21 AM)frankksj Wrote:  The only gray area is when a fetus is no longer part of a woman's body and becomes it's own individual

that would be birth

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes WitchSabrina's post
06-02-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:26 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Which states [ban high risk deliveries at home with midwives] and please cite the law. Making shit up to prove your point doesn't count.

All you need to do is google "ban on midwives for high risk pregnancies" and you'll find tons of links. You really never heard of the VBAC laws???

(06-02-2014 09:26 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  And banning direct-entry midwives - which is essentially practicing medicine without a formal education or license - is not banning home birth.

So you seem to be defending the ban. Didn't you just say earlier it's a woman's body, it should be her choice how to handle the pregnancy? If she wants her sister, who is not a licensed medical professional, to deliver the baby, are you saying that should be banned? Are you saying that if a mother makes, what you consider a bad decision that threatens the baby, such as using an unlicensed midwife, the state needs to intervene and restrict the woman's choice to protect the unborn baby?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:53 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 09:26 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Which states [ban high risk deliveries at home with midwives] and please cite the law. Making shit up to prove your point doesn't count.

All you need to do is google "ban on midwives for high risk pregnancies" and you'll find tons of links. You really never heard of the VBAC laws???

(06-02-2014 09:26 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  And banning direct-entry midwives - which is essentially practicing medicine without a formal education or license - is not banning home birth.

So you seem to be defending the ban. Didn't you just say earlier it's a woman's body, it should be her choice how to handle the pregnancy? If she wants her sister, who is not a licensed medical professional, to deliver the baby, are you saying that should be banned? Are you saying that if a mother makes, what you consider a bad decision that threatens the baby, such as using an unlicensed midwife, the state needs to intervene and restrict the woman's choice to protect the unborn baby?


And vaginal Birth After C-section has nothing to do with midwifery, or home births. Nice try, dipshit. Answer the question. Which states, specially, ban home births and high risk pregnancy home births??

I'm saying that no one should be able to practice medicine without a license.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
BTW - nothing came up in google under those parameters. So I ask you, again, which states specifically ban home births?? You made the statement, now put up or shut up.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: