Abortion, choice or murder?
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06-02-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:20 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:00 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  BTW - nothing came up in google under those parameters. So I ask you, again, which states specifically ban home births?? You made the statement, now put up or shut up.

Then you don't know how to use google.

Here's one of the first links which says in Alabama "having a midwife deliver a child at home isn’t [legal]."

In < 10 seconds on google, it shows that Alabama is one such state. And if you keep scrolling down the list, you'll see there are lots of state with restrictions on how a woman can deliver the baby.

It's idiotic that you insist that I'm wrong for saying that states have laws banning home delivery with midwives of certain high risk births (like VBAC), and in the very same post you defend the laws you just insisted don't exist!!!

Can you read, Frank? The home births THEMSELVES are not banned, or illegal. Again, nice try.

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06-02-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:24 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:19 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  stop that.

The reason it pisses you off so much is it reveals hypocrisy. You are NOT pro-choice at all. When I mention that some women choose home delivery, you respond: "If some moronic woman decides to call her witchy friend a fucking midwife and deliver unsafely on her kitchen table........... that's a matter for the LAW to deal with."

What happened to respecting the rights of the woman to make her own choices and decide for herself? See, as soon as she makes a choice you don't approve you, you call her "moronic" and "witchy" and insist the law needs to take care of her. You don't respect a woman's right to make a choice that you do not approve of. You give a woman list of approved choices she can make, and if she deviates from your list, she gets arrested. That makes you pro-multiple-choice", not "pro-choice".


No --- that is NOT the going definition of pro-choice, Frank. I'm not being hypocritical - I'm staying On-Point with the subject matter.

You're talking about Delivery Options......... a completely different subject matter.

Which is why I said You are goal-post-moving and that's bullshit to do during a discussion. IF you wish to discuss a completely different topic - such as Delivery Options - then do so.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-02-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:21 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Stay on point. Which states outlaw home births for high risk pregnancies??

It took me < a minute to find a run-down of all the states here.

VBAC, a 'high risk delivery', is banned, even with licensed mid-wives, in Alaska, No. AS 08.65.140(d)(15), Arizona No. A.A.C. R9-16-108(A)(1), Arkansas No. § 406.1, in California it's banned if there's no physician present in Code §2516(a)(3)(K), and on and on.

Go down the list. You insist there are no laws against high risk deliveries, like VBAC, at home with midwives, and guess what, you can see that almost all states have such laws. Only Maine and Missouri do not restrict a woman's right to choose how and where to deliver her baby.

So it seems you've been arguing over laws around women's reproductive rights, and you haven't educated yourself what those laws actually are.
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06-02-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:30 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:21 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Stay on point. Which states outlaw home births for high risk pregnancies??

It took me < a minute to find a run-down of all the states here.

VBAC, a 'high risk delivery', is banned, even with licensed mid-wives, in Alaska, No. AS 08.65.140(d)(15), Arizona No. A.A.C. R9-16-108(A)(1), Arkansas No. § 406.1, in California it's banned if there's no physician present in Code §2516(a)(3)(K), and on and on.

Go down the list. You insist there are no laws against high risk deliveries, like VBAC, at home with midwives, and guess what, you can see that almost all states have such laws. Only Maine and Missouri do not restrict a woman's right to choose how and where to deliver her baby.

VBAC is not a "high risk delivery"

It simply means vaginal birth after c-section. And again, can you read? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOME BIRTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So again, what states ban home births?

Come on, Frank. Why are you avoiding the question?? Or would you just care to admit that you made shit up to prove your point?

There are no bans on home birth. There are bans on certain medical practices involving midwifery, but should not be confused with actual home births.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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06-02-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, "most liberals" don't believe in unrestricted abortion up until birth. Where do you get that idea?

This is one of your typical assumptions about others that makes you so fucking annoying. Drinking Beverage

Did you read your own post? I asked at what point does the fetus become an individual with its own right to life so that if the mother terminates the pregnancy it is criminal murder, not abortion. You responded "The line of personhood at birth, and therefore murder, is already drawn."

So, YOU yourself said it's birth. Then you respond most liberals "don't believe in unrestricted abortion up until birth." Which is ironic because that's what I said. I said that when you, Cathy, Mom, et all said the line is drawn at birth, that you were on the fringe, and most liberals draw the line earlier. You restate my position, then tell me I'm annoying????
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06-02-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:33 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So again, what states ban home births?

Come on, Frank. Why are you avoiding the question?? Or would you just care to admit that you made shit up to prove your point?

There are no bans on home birth. There are bans on certain medical practices involving midwifery, but should not be confused with actual home births.

Obviously you don't like the taste of crow, so you're making up strawman. My original statement, which you disputed, is that many states ban certain types of high-risk delivery (like vbac). That chart I gave you lists all teh states and all the laws. For example, in Florida, "Based on risk factor scoring, midwife must consult with physician and if physician and midwife agree that client is expected to have normal pregnancy, labor, and delivery, may proceed. Florida Statutes: Title XXXII §§ 467.001 through 467.207 . Rules for risk protocols: F.A.C. 64B24-7.004,

So, exactly like I said, the state decides when a woman may or may not deliver a baby at home. There's all the laws. How on earth can you in the same sentence defend laws AND insist the laws don't exist?!?!
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06-02-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:28 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You're talking about Delivery Options......... a completely different subject matter.

Abortion _IS_ by it's definition, a "delivery option". It's a way to remove the baby from the womb. Like I said all along, you are NOT actually pro-choice. You give a woman a list of acceptable ways to remove the baby from the womb, and arrest her if she makes a choice you don't approve of.
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06-02-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:42 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:28 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You're talking about Delivery Options......... a completely different subject matter.

Abortion _IS_ by it's definition, a "delivery option". It's a way to remove the baby from the womb. Like I said all along, you are NOT actually pro-choice. You give a woman a list of acceptable ways to remove the baby from the womb, and arrest her if she makes a choice you don't approve of.

Nope. I don't arrest anyone.
My *list* isn't a list but rather the right (and legal opportunity) for the woman to decide what is right for her. You wish to beat that to death. I don't have to. My stance is rather clear.
You're TRYING really hard to argue with people when actually you have very little to say. You're into moving the goal post and impossible to communicate with effectively.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-02-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:40 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:33 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So again, what states ban home births?

Come on, Frank. Why are you avoiding the question?? Or would you just care to admit that you made shit up to prove your point?

There are no bans on home birth. There are bans on certain medical practices involving midwifery, but should not be confused with actual home births.

Obviously you don't like the taste of crow, so you're making up strawman. My original statement, which you disputed, is that many states ban certain types of high-risk delivery (like vbac).


No, you actual statement was this:
(06-02-2014 09:21 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Consider that most states have laws banning women from having high-risk deliveries at home with midwives.


Like I said, which STATES ban high risk deliveries at HOME, i.e., which states ban home births??! VBAC just means vaginal birth after c-section. It has nothing to do with the location of that birth (you can have VBAC at the hospital too). And its not deemed to be a "high risk"

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06-02-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, the topic of the tread is whether or not abortion is murder. Your only response to that point is that in your opinion it becomes murder after 3-6 months, I assumed based on the thinking that somewhere in that period the child becomes fully formed if not necessarily viable out side the womb. I also assume you make an exception if the health of the mother is at great risk.

A careful reading of most of the thread indicates that the question of the OP was discussed with some nuance if the term murder was not frequently used because of its loaded meanings.

But, you had to start your usual drift bring and up all sorts of off topic items like which BIRTHING methods were allowed in which states etc. All to help prove what a know it all you are. Then you accuse others of being not pro choice because they may find some difficulty with certain forms of BIRTHING.

You are a prig.
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