Abortion, choice or murder?
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06-02-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:55 AM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, the topic of the tread is whether or not abortion is murder. Your only response to that point is that in your opinion it becomes murder after 3-6 months, I assumed based on the thinking that somewhere in that period the child becomes fully formed if not necessarily viable out side the womb. I also assume you make an exception if the health of the mother is at great risk.

A careful reading of most of the thread indicates that the question of the OP was discussed with some nuance if the term murder was not frequently used because of its loaded meanings.

But, you had to start your usual drift bring and up all sorts of off topic items like which BIRTHING methods were allowed in which states etc. All to help prove what a know it all you are. Then you accuse others of being not pro choice because they may find some difficulty with certain forms of BIRTHING.

You are a prig.



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06-02-2014, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 12:04 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:55 AM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, the topic of the tread is whether or not abortion is murder.

Exactly. So my question asking where people draw the line between abortion & murder (conception, 1 week, 3 months, 6 months, full term, etc.) IS the core issue at the heart of the discussion.

The ONLY point I was making, which I still feel is valid, is that when one group draws the line at one place, it's unreasonable to be dogmatic and insist that their opinion is the only valid one. There is no right or wrong answer where to draw the line between abortion and murder. It's all just a matter of opinion, and, sure, I have an opinion, but mine isn't any more valid than anybody else's. I don't see that as being a prick, but simply pragmatic. Those who have their opinion where to draw the line and don't accept that others have different and equally valid opinions, that is being a prick imo.

(06-02-2014 10:55 AM)JAH Wrote:  But, you had to start your usual drift bring and up all sorts of off topic items like which BIRTHING methods were allowed in which states etc.

This isn't off-topic at all. When one group is drawing their arbitrary line in one place, and trying to attack the other group by taking a very hypocritical, false moral high road saying "I draw the line here because I support a woman's right to choose" it's quite reasonable to point out the fallacy of this argument because the people using it actually do NOT support a woman's right to choose anymore than their opponents. They STILL tell a woman what is and is not an acceptable way to extract the baby. And, if the woman makes a choice they find unacceptable, they STILL want the law to bear down on the woman for making an unapproved choice.

I think they find my post offensive simply because I REALLY am "pro-choice" and mean it. It is the woman's body. It's her decision. Period. It's not up to her husband, her doctor, or politicians. Naturally I feel she SHOULD take the advice of a medical professional, and if my wife were asking for a home delivery, I would be begging her to reconsider. BUT, in the end, it's the woman's body, it's her choice. So, even if my wife wanted to do something I considered extreme, even a risky home delivery with an unlicensed midwife, I wouldn't use force to stop her, because I am firmly pro-choice and respect a woman's right to make these decisions herself. If it offends the so-called "pro-choicers" to hear from someone who REALLY IS "pro-choice", I'm sorry, but that's the whole point of a forum, to exchange ideas.
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06-02-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
This thread feels entirely off topic now. Sadness. Weeping

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06-02-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 12:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  This thread feels entirely off topic now. Sadness. Weeping


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06-02-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
frankksj, the term I used is prig not prick they are much different terms.

Your above post was probably the most coherent one you have made on this thread, maybe because it was somewhat concise. No matter, it still is merely your attempt to prove that your purity of thought is much greater than anyone else. You make your own personal definition of pro choice and DEMAND that others accept it. A great way to argue your point and in the end make yourself look foolish.

I will no longer respond here because as has been pointed out there has been too much thread drift in a thread that started out on a very basic concern.
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06-02-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 12:52 PM)JAH Wrote:  You make your own personal definition of pro choice and DEMAND that others accept it. A great way to argue your point and in the end make yourself look foolish.

IMO, I'm the only one NOT demanding that others accept my personal opinions. I've stated my opinion is no more valid than anybody else's, so I have no right to impose my opinion.

Compare that to some on this thread who claim to be "pro-choice", but then say that if a woman makes a certain unorthodox choice as to how to extract the baby, she must be a "moron" and the state needs to intervene and save her from her own stupidity. To me, THAT is demanding others accept your opinions, and is being a prig. Who is more self-righteous? The one who says "Do it my way or else I'll send someone to beat you over the head", or the one who says "I'll respect your right to exercise free will even if I disagree with your choices"?
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06-02-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 07:47 PM)trogit Wrote:  So since I converted to atheism I have had a hard time with abortion. I still feel like it is murder and that A baby can always be put up for adoption. I just saw a video on my facebook wall that a girl posted. It shows an aborted fetus still being able to move and being ALIVE. I was adopted and if abortion was legal in Indiana, I could have been dead. What do you say about abortion and why?

Personally, I don't like abortions, and I'd like to see people stop having them. That being said, I don't see the way to address this being making it illegal; I'd rather get rid of unwanted pregnancies (as much as we can). I'm pro-choice because I've yet to see a pro-life stance that isn't worse than what we currently have.

They either come off as laughably unenforceable or horrifically draconian. The whole notion of life beginning at conception is incredibly inconvenient, given how many embryos die in utero, making procreation reckless endangerment or manslaughter. Also, all the heavy doses of slut-shaming really turn me off from a lot of anything else they have to say.
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06-02-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
If a woman has a miscarriage, would that be accidental murder?

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06-02-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Babyslaughter ^^

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06-02-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:35 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 10:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, "most liberals" don't believe in unrestricted abortion up until birth. Where do you get that idea?

This is one of your typical assumptions about others that makes you so fucking annoying. Drinking Beverage

Did you read your own post? I asked at what point does the fetus become an individual with its own right to life so that if the mother terminates the pregnancy it is criminal murder, not abortion. You responded "The line of personhood at birth, and therefore murder, is already drawn."

So, YOU yourself said it's birth. Then you respond most liberals "don't believe in unrestricted abortion up until birth." Which is ironic because that's what I said. I said that when you, Cathy, Mom, et all said the line is drawn at birth, that you were on the fringe, and most liberals draw the line earlier. You restate my position, then tell me I'm annoying????

You quote me out of context - a typical tactic of yours. I don't know whether or not you know you do that. Consider

That statement was in response to a specific point about what constituted murder.

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