Abortion, choice or murder?
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06-02-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 05:43 PM)Question Wrote:  If a woman has a miscarriage, would that be accidental murder?

Depends on if you're doubling down and going full "life begins at conception".

If the embryo that is created is a human with full rights, and you knowingly put them in an environment where they are likely to die (something like 50% - 83% between conception and birth!), then it'd be reckless endangerment just to conceive. If it actually dies, then it's probably manslaughter or depraved indifference, depending on motive.

This is why no one actually believes life begins at conception; it's a popular argument they like to bust out to help win abortion debates, make everything feel real simple and black-and-white, and then put back on the shelf before it becomes inconvenient.
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06-02-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I suppose that if a woman continues to conceive and undergoes spontaneous abortions because of a damaged uterus we could consider it manslaughter X #.

I think every pregnant woman should be policed throughout her pregnancy for her eating behaviors, exercising, what she says (fetus may pick up negative crap), . . . Some of this is already being done.

I know, I know, every time we see a pregnant woman doing something (at individual discretion) we think might hurt the embryo / fetus, we should point, scream, and humiliate her until she stops, like eating a big piece of cake.

I know, I know, if a pregnant woman smokes we should put her in stocks--again public humiliation will work.

I know, I know, lets support women's rights before it goes too far--like when women were institutionalized for hysteria by her father and / or husband!

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06-02-2014, 08:27 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 07:26 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is why no one actually believes life begins at conception
I accept that life begins at conception.
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06-02-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 05:43 PM)Question Wrote:  If a woman has a miscarriage, would that be accidental murder?
Would it be considered accidental murder if a person suffers a heart attack?
Obviously killing a foetus via medical procedure with the sole intention of killing the foetus is different to a situation where the foetus dies without any intent by a third party to kill it.
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06-02-2014, 09:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 08:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 07:26 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is why no one actually believes life begins at conception
I accept that life begins at conception.
ShockingBlinkWeepingWeepingNo

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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06-02-2014, 10:23 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 10:31 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 09:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 08:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I accept that life begins at conception.
ShockingBlinkWeepingWeepingNo
I don't understand your need to deny that something is alive.
It's growing, metabolising, self healing...
It is a distinctly different life from the mother because it has a different set of DNA. It is a life form which is growing inside the uterus of its mother.
This is much different from something that is not alive e.g. a rock, doesn't grow, doesn't metabolise, has no healing defenses from the environment and is different from a part of a life form such as a kidney which has the same DNA as the mother and is simply a part of a whole.
Well, there is a grey area regarding complex life forms (such as humans), we have symbiotic life structures that work together (bacteria inside us) and we have specific cells (kidney, liver, blood) but I guess to some degree we make a distinction regarding non competing cells/life forms etc. They work so well together and don't compete for resources such that they are considered as a whole to be one life form.
But with a foetus the woman's body must carryout a complex and special process to stop itself from rejecting the fetus, thus it does not count as "non competing cells" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...142244.htm
So the fetus is empirically alive and is empirically a distinct and different life form from the mother.

Why is it important for you to deny that it is a life?
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06-02-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Sorry Stevil, I don't have an interest in talking about this with you. I doubt either of us has anything to say that will benefit the other. If I'm wrong, oh welllz.

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06-02-2014, 10:56 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:33 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

"some liquid" = dog jizz

You must have just swallowed.



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06-02-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:23 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 09:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  ShockingBlinkWeepingWeepingNo
I don't understand your need to deny that something is alive.
It's growing, metabolising, self healing...
It is a distinctly different life from the mother because it has a different set of DNA. It is a life form which is growing inside the uterus of its mother.
This is much different from something that is not alive e.g. a rock, doesn't grow, doesn't metabolise, has no healing defenses from the environment and is different from a part of a life form such as a kidney which has the same DNA as the mother and is simply a part of a whole.
Well, there is a grey area regarding complex life forms (such as humans), we have symbiotic life structures that work together (bacteria inside us) and we have specific cells (kidney, liver, blood) but I guess to some degree we make a distinction regarding non competing cells/life forms etc. They work so well together and don't compete for resources such that they are considered as a whole to be one life form.
But with a foetus the woman's body must carryout a complex and special process to stop itself from rejecting the fetus, thus it does not count as "non competing cells" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...142244.htm
So the fetus is empirically alive and is empirically a distinct and different life form from the mother.

Why is it important for you to deny that it is a life?
Based on your argument life begins before conception. Life begins at puberty I guess. When people say they "life begins at conception", they usually mean human life begins at conception and that is not the case. A fertilized egg is not a person. A fetus is closer to a parasite than a person. People can live on their own. People do not depend on a host to be their life source.

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07-02-2014, 12:15 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 11:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Based on your argument life begins before conception. Life begins at puberty I guess. When people say they "life begins at conception", they usually mean human life begins at conception and that is not the case. A fertilized egg is not a person. A fetus is closer to a parasite than a person. People can live on their own. People do not depend on a host to be their life source.
Some people do depend on a host.
Unborn babies for example, we all start off dependant on our mother's womb.
After we are born we are still very much dependant on others looking after us, feeding us, cleaning us, doing things that babies are incapable of doing for themselves.

Some people depend on electronic equipment, e.g. dialysis, iron lung, pace maker...

I really do get confused with people trying so hard to dehumanise a fetus, or to de-personise it or to deny it is a life form.

It really seems to me they have some end goal that they are trying to find a justification for.

Can't we call it a human fetus, a life form and also be content allowing other people (or even ourselves) to have abortions if we want to?
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