Abortion, choice or murder?
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07-02-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 12:15 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 11:11 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Based on your argument life begins before conception. Life begins at puberty I guess. When people say they "life begins at conception", they usually mean human life begins at conception and that is not the case. A fertilized egg is not a person. A fetus is closer to a parasite than a person. People can live on their own. People do not depend on a host to be their life source.
Some people do depend on a host.
No they do not.

Quote:Unborn babies for example, we all start off dependant on our mother's womb.
A fetus is not a person. A fetus has the potential to become a person.

Quote:After we are born we are still very much dependant on others looking after us, feeding us, cleaning us, doing things that babies are incapable of doing for themselves.

Some people depend on electronic equipment, e.g. dialysis, iron lung, pace maker...
I don't know how this is relevant. None of these things are hosts. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Quote:I really do get confused with people trying so hard to dehumanise a fetus, or to de-personise it or to deny it is a life form.

It really seems to me they have some end goal that they are trying to find a justification for.

Can't we call it a human fetus, a life form and also be content allowing other people (or even ourselves) to have abortions if we want to?

You can call it whatever you like, but it is not a person. We do not refer to people as "it".

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07-02-2014, 01:16 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 12:56 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  A fetus is not a person. A fetus has the potential to become a person.
These are just baseless assertions.
What is your definition of a person?
And why have you chosen this definition?

(07-02-2014 12:56 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I don't know how this is relevant. None of these things are hosts. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Why have you arbitrarily drawn the line on being dependant on a host?
That is merely one stage in the life of a person, seems you are just wanting to find the difference between a born and an unborn and point to that as your qualifier for what is or isn't a person?

Do you really think a 9 month term unborn baby isn't a person until its umbilical cord is cut?


(07-02-2014 12:56 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You can call it whatever you like, but it is not a person. We do not refer to people as "it".
More assertions.
If I call a person an it, this person doesn't all of a sudden become a non person.
A rose by any other name...

Reason why people tend to call a fetus an it is because they may not know what the gender is.
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07-02-2014, 01:35 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Baby frog
[Image: D702CFAC-EDED-471F-92D9-0F9B9B38686D_zpsz69gebfj.jpg]

Not a baby frog
[Image: 14E7E4CE-A393-40A4-993B-EE316697AABF_zpsuetkinvt.jpg]

Baby person (mine btw Big Grin)
[Image: DFE9EA36-7C03-47CB-98E9-B91E2303E565_zpszyioheie.jpg]

Not a baby person
[Image: 1D2B181D-55A9-4446-9558-C50EEF503E74_zpsgavphdma.jpg]

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07-02-2014, 01:59 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
That would be a human fetus. You could call it a fetus person but that would be as awkward as calling something a baby person.

The word "person" doesn't need a qualifier as it is not age specific.
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07-02-2014, 02:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2014 03:05 AM by Losty.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 01:59 AM)Stevil Wrote:  That would be a human fetus. You could call it a fetus person but that would be as awkward as calling something a baby person.

The word "person" doesn't need a qualifier as it is not age specific.

Human fetus = not a person

***This is the definition I like for person.

Person-one that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties

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07-02-2014, 02:50 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
You're fun (actually you're almost as annoying as frank), but it is 3:50 am and my baby person finally fell asleep so I am going to bed now. Goodnight.

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07-02-2014, 03:06 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 02:48 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 01:59 AM)Stevil Wrote:  That would be a human fetus. You could call it a fetus person but that would be as awkward as calling something a baby person.

The word "person" doesn't need a qualifier as it is not age specific.

Human fetus = not a person
Another assertion.
I consider a human fetus to be a person.
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07-02-2014, 03:07 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 02:50 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You're fun (actually you're almost as annoying as frank), but it is 3:50 am and my baby person finally fell asleep so I am going to bed now. Goodnight.
Ummm, annoying? Why, because I don't agree with your assertions?
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07-02-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 08:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 07:26 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This is why no one actually believes life begins at conception
I accept that life begins at conception.

The context of what I was saying is that the embryo being alive doesn't necessarily grant it the full rights we associate with being a living human. If it did, procreation would be reckless endangerment, and no one actually feels that way.

When someone doubles down on life beginning at conception (and by extension, the fetus having full rights and being capable of being "murdered"), they're opening themselves up to the fetus being recklessly endangered.

If someone says "Yeah, but we need to continue the species, so we'll make an exception.", then they're just engaging in special pleading. Their argument hinges on the fetus being a human that can be murdered as a universal law, and
then they demand an exception from that law with no good reason.

And as long as we're opening the door to special pleading, an equally "valid" case would be "fetuses are humans capable of being murdered, but we'll make a special exception in the case of abortion.". It cuts both ways.
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07-02-2014, 07:17 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Fetuses that die before a live birth can happen are not issued death certificates as they are not persons.

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