Abortion, choice or murder?
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07-02-2014, 07:43 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 07:17 AM)Dom Wrote:  Fetuses that die before a live birth can happen are not issued death certificates as they are not persons.

stevil, Dom is talking about me specifically here. My baby died at 8 months in utero. It didn't record a death certificate because it was never alive.

Yes, it had the potential to be alive, but up until the minute it can survive without a direct reliance on my body for oxygen and nutrition, it is not alive. Anymore than my epidermis is alive after it leaves my body.

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07-02-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(06-02-2014 10:23 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 09:26 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  ShockingBlinkWeepingWeepingNo
I don't understand your need to deny that something is alive.
It's growing, metabolising, self healing...
It is a distinctly different life from the mother because it has a different set of DNA. It is a life form which is growing inside the uterus of its mother.
This is much different from something that is not alive e.g. a rock, doesn't grow, doesn't metabolise, has no healing defenses from the environment and is different from a part of a life form such as a kidney which has the same DNA as the mother and is simply a part of a whole.
Well, there is a grey area regarding complex life forms (such as humans), we have symbiotic life structures that work together (bacteria inside us) and we have specific cells (kidney, liver, blood) but I guess to some degree we make a distinction regarding non competing cells/life forms etc. They work so well together and don't compete for resources such that they are considered as a whole to be one life form.
But with a foetus the woman's body must carryout a complex and special process to stop itself from rejecting the fetus, thus it does not count as "non competing cells" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...142244.htm
So the fetus is empirically alive and is empirically a distinct and different life form from the mother.

Why is it important for you to deny that it is a life?

There are problems with your view. Many fertilized eggs are never implanted in the uterus, they are just flushed from the body.

A woman is not pregnant until implantation.

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07-02-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 03:07 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 02:50 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You're fun (actually you're almost as annoying as frank), but it is 3:50 am and my baby person finally fell asleep so I am going to bed now. Goodnight.
Ummm, annoying? Why, because I don't agree with your assertions?

My assertion is that a human fetus is not legally considered a person. It is not a baseless assertion. It is a fact.

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07-02-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 11:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are problems with your view. Many fertilized eggs are never implanted in the uterus, they are just flushed from the body.

A woman is not pregnant until implantation.
I'm not sure how that presents any problems with my view.
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07-02-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 01:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 11:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are problems with your view. Many fertilized eggs are never implanted in the uterus, they are just flushed from the body.

A woman is not pregnant until implantation.
I'm not sure how that presents any problems with my view.

Your position that life begins at conception is weakened by this fact.

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07-02-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 12:36 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 03:07 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Ummm, annoying? Why, because I don't agree with your assertions?

My assertion is that a human fetus is not legally considered a person. It is not a baseless assertion. It is a fact.
You've changed your story.

Googling "legal person" I'm not seeing any distinction between a unborn and a born.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Legal+person
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...gal-person
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_person
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07-02-2014, 01:31 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 01:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 01:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm not sure how that presents any problems with my view.

Your position that life begins at conception is weakened by this fact.
How is that the case?
Let's say an egg becomes fertilised thus it grows and life begins, it fails to implant and in a few days or weeks is flushed out of the woman's body thus it dies. Its life was brief but brevity does not mean that it was never alive.
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07-02-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 07:07 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The context of what I was saying is that the embryo being alive doesn't necessarily grant it the full rights we associate with being a living human. If it did, procreation would be reckless endangerment, and no one actually feels that way.

When someone doubles down on life beginning at conception (and by extension, the fetus having full rights and being capable of being "murdered"), they're opening themselves up to the fetus being recklessly endangered.

If someone says "Yeah, but we need to continue the species, so we'll make an exception.", then they're just engaging in special pleading. Their argument hinges on the fetus being a human that can be murdered as a universal law, and
then they demand an exception from that law with no good reason.

And as long as we're opening the door to special pleading, an equally "valid" case would be "fetuses are humans capable of being murdered, but we'll make a special exception in the case of abortion.". It cuts both ways.
I'm not concerned with "rights" I don't feel it is the government's concern to define and protect people's rights.

In my view it is the government's concern to govern a functioning society.
If mothers killing their unborn does not make society unstable then it is not a matter for the government to interfere.
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07-02-2014, 01:38 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 01:29 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 12:36 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  My assertion is that a human fetus is not legally considered a person. It is not a baseless assertion. It is a fact.
You've changed your story.

Googling "legal person" I'm not seeing any distinction between a unborn and a born.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Legal+person
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...gal-person
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_person

You didn't try very hard. Like this. Or this.

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07-02-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(07-02-2014 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  You didn't try very hard. Like this. Or this.
Legal rights are arbitrarily defined by a bunch of politicians.
What is important here is what Science and medical professions have to say regarding what is life and what is a human being.
Try to read the following without a preconcieved goal of "pro choice" and anti "government interference". We (you and me) are both pro choice, but I agree with the following articles regarding when life begins.

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
http://fallibleblogma.com/index.php/when...fe-begins/
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