Abortion, choice or murder?
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10-02-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(09-02-2014 09:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
Those that take the "personhood" argument are also leaving science behind. "Person" or "personhood" is not a scientific term. They are trying to conflate this term with something else (potentially scientific) e.g. development of nervous system or consciousness. Then they are drawing a line in the sand and saying that the "Person" is a sacred entity, requiring legal protection dispite what the mother wants to do. At this point they are saying that they want the government to interfere, to then take the choice away from the mother.
...

No, you are mischaracterizng the argument; mine, at least.

I am using scientifically determined facts to determine when the fetus can a) feel pain, and b) survive outside the womb. Anything prior to either of those is, in fact, a clump of cells.

And since those things do not occur before the third trimester, the pregnant woman has had six months to make a choice - her choice has not been taken away.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-02-2014, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 10:44 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(10-02-2014 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, you are mischaracterizng the argument; mine, at least.

I am using scientifically determined facts to determine when the fetus can a) feel pain, and b) survive outside the womb. Anything prior to either of those is, in fact, a clump of cells.
But there is no scientific definition of person. They don't say in a science book that in order to be considered a human an entity must be able to feel pain.
Scientifically we could also call an adult human a clump of cells. I could use science the same way you do. I could point to the stage of puberty. Puberty is scientific right? Then I can attach the "personhood" label to that scientific point and then does that make my statement scientific? "when a human reaches puberty then they become a person". Of course it does not make my statement scientific, neither is yours.

(10-02-2014 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  And since those things do not occur before the third trimester, the pregnant woman has had six months to make a choice - her choice has not been taken away.
I understand where you have drawn the line. Coincidentally it fits exactly on the border where you personally become comfortable with abortion.

But other people have a different definition of person, some people at conception, some people at birth, some people anywhere in between those points.
I don't think your own personal belief on "personhood" justifies you sanctioning police to use force against a pregnant woman whom has been pregnant for 6 months and 1 day.

But we have a different view on the role of government and police.
I have no interest in forcing my beliefs on other people. I don't need to come up with non scientific terms such as "personhood" and use that towards a personal goal on justifying when abortion should be allowed or not.
I see why you fight for your definition, I see why you ascribe it to the exact point in human development that you do. I think it is putting the cart before the horses. It is an attempt to justify your end goal, to justify why you would support government and police in using force against a pregnant woman when her pregnancy (and potential abortion of it) has no impact on you. And thus would otherwise be none of your business.
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10-02-2014, 10:41 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I believe I said something similar to this 20 pages ago...

Getting everybody to agree on the point when a potential person becomes an actual person is not going to happen.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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11-02-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Thought I'd throw in something a little funny/relative to the conversation;
Sorry if anyone finds it a tad inappropriate, abortion is a serious matter and my opinion is that life still living is important than life not.




Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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11-02-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Huh? I thought this discussion was long over? Dodgy


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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11-02-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Ali G and Cathy must have gone to the same university. We've been debating why inequality has gotten so bad these past 40 years, and why the historic gini co-efficient, the official measurement of inequality, shows this trend began precisely in 1971. She wrote: "there was a change in the co-efficient because prior to 1971, WOMEN weren't in the work force!"

See, you feminists fucked everything up! If you'd only respected your role and stayed in the kitchen, cooking and making babies for your husbands, we wouldn't have all this inequality. As for abortion, I suspect Todd Akin went to Cathy's school where he was taught that women's bodies naturally reject pregnancies that result from rape.

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11-02-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(11-02-2014 05:27 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Ali G and Cathy must have gone to the same university. We've been debating why inequality has gotten so bad these past 40 years, and why the historic gini co-efficient, the official measurement of inequality, shows this trend began precisely in 1971. She wrote: "there was a change in the co-efficient because prior to 1971, WOMEN weren't in the work force!"

See, you feminists fucked everything up! If you'd only respected your role and stayed in the kitchen, cooking and making babies for your husbands, we wouldn't have all this inequality. As for abortion, I suspect Todd Akin went to Cathy's school where he was taught that women's bodies naturally reject pregnancies that result from rape.

Smile

As usual, you mischaracterise everything, troll.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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12-02-2014, 12:34 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 07:47 PM)trogit Wrote:  So since I converted to atheism I have had a hard time with abortion. I still feel like it is murder and that A baby can always be put up for adoption. I just saw a video on my facebook wall that a girl posted. It shows an aborted fetus still being able to move and being ALIVE. I was adopted and if abortion was legal in Indiana, I could have been dead. What do you say about abortion and why?

....dang, 25 pages in just a few days. I'm too lazy to review it all, so I'll just respond to the OP. It might help you, to think about abortion not just when it looks like a baby, but also say, right after conception. Would you think it murder to take a day-after pill?

You might decide that at an early enough stage, the conceptus/fetus/baby is not sufficiently human like to deserve any protection...but that perhaps later on it is. This is the position a lot of atheists take, but in the end, you have to decide for yourself these questions, now that you no longer have someone else telling you the answers you must accept.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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12-02-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
An interesting article. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/d...or_my.html

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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12-02-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 07:47 PM)trogit Wrote:  I was adopted and if abortion was legal in Indiana, I could have been dead.

It depends on when you became an 'I'. You started as an egg and sperm. Therefore, you could also say:

Had mom not worn that sexy lingerie and gotten dad so excited that night, I'd be dead. Or, if dad jerked off that evening, it'd have been murder as he flushed me down the shower drain.

But you wouldn't say that because you don't identify as an unfertilized egg or a sperm. It's hard to even say a fertilized egg is a person. What if, right after sex, your mom did something that prevented the fertilized egg from lodging, like, maybe going jogging? You wouldn't say "I'd be dead if mom went for a jog", because you don't identify with being a fertilized egg.

At SOME point in the development, you became a person, you became you. There's no right answer when that happens. IMO, most people don't think your mom should have been allowed to abort YOU, the debate is when that cluster of cells became YOU.
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