Abortion, choice or murder?
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03-02-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 11:13 PM)trogit Wrote:  I have read a couple of post here that have changed my mind. thank you for those people who were civil. But please, I was here to get you thoughts so I could better make a decision, and a lot of these posts were hateful and mean. Please be considerate and know I am not those dumb crazy freaky republicans but a man looking for enlightenment on a topic I know little about.

I suggest you think hard about what constitutes a "person". Then you will better be able to decide on abortion.

Is one cell a "person"?

Is two cells a "person"?

Is four cells a "person"? Eight? Sixteen?

Is a bunch of cells without a brain, or even a nervous system a "person"?

Think about this and get back to me. I am interested. Drinking Beverage

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04-02-2014, 07:09 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 07:37 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 11:25 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ...since you asked for opionions.

I guess to me, the salient aspects that determine what should or shouldn't be given legal rights, is if someone cares about it, including possibly itself, and it has some liklihood of having self interest. This would include a fetus, if the mother wants it, and it would include a person in a coma. But it would not include a person who is brain dead, as they have no hope of ever again having self interest, and it would not include a fetus that has no self awareness, if the mother doesn't want it.

Also, IMHO, these rights should not be black and white. I think there should be such a thing as degrees of personhood. A 1 month fetus, that the mother wants, is not the same as a 12 year old. The penalties should probably not rise to manslaughter or murder for a 1 month fetus under any circumstance.

There might be a fuzzy area if a fetus has self awarness, but I believe current science shows consciousness does not even exist in new borns, so even law that allows abortion up to birth, probably doesn't violate my personal ethic on this.

You understand an abortion of a one month fetus is very rare. Why? Because you don't find out you are pregnant until you miss your period. And at that point, the fetus is considered to be 4 weeks. And that's if you have a regular cycle. A lot of women don't so it's not uncommon for them to miss a period. Most women need a little bit of time to make this difficult decision (at least a week or so).


Most abortions happen between 6-12 weeks

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04-02-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 11:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 11:13 PM)trogit Wrote:  I have read a couple of post here that have changed my mind. thank you for those people who were civil. But please, I was here to get you thoughts so I could better make a decision, and a lot of these posts were hateful and mean. Please be considerate and know I am not those dumb crazy freaky republicans but a man looking for enlightenment on a topic I know little about.

I suggest you think hard about what constitutes a "person". Then you will better be able to decide on abortion.

Is one cell a "person"?

Is two cells a "person"?

Is four cells a "person"? Eight? Sixteen?

Is a bunch of cells without a brain, or even a nervous system a "person"?

Think about this and get back to me. I am interested. Drinking Beverage

That is the philosophical question, now isn't it? When does "life" begin? As a blasto it is not a fully formed person, but it has all the information it needs to form a person. Prior to being viable (around 24 weeks) it will have all the systems it needs to live on, but it will not be ready to do so. It is so debated and disagreed upon becasue it is not so clear cut like birth and death.
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04-02-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I decided a long time ago this was a subject I'm perfectly happy for women to decide amongst themselves.
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04-02-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Abortion is termination of a pregnancy not termination of a fetus.

And certainly not termination of a person.

Note Chas's comment:

(03-02-2014 11:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  ...
I suggest you think hard about what constitutes a "person". Then you will better be able to decide on abortion.
...

This is important but not crucial.

If the definition of a person is "a human being regarded as an individual" then humans who cannot support themselves independently (individually) could be considered to be non-persons.

So termination of a 2 month old? No problem, right?

A better way of looking at it is the bodily rights argument.

Check this out and weigh up the opposing views...



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04-02-2014, 07:47 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I wanna abort every motherfucker who calls it murder. Dodgy

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04-02-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I wanna abort every motherfucker who calls it murder. Dodgy


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04-02-2014, 08:36 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
""Every human baby is precious and all life is precious: a fantasy""

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2012/11/the...-religion/

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-02-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:33 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 11:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  I suggest you think hard about what constitutes a "person". Then you will better be able to decide on abortion.

Is one cell a "person"?

Is two cells a "person"?

Is four cells a "person"? Eight? Sixteen?

Is a bunch of cells without a brain, or even a nervous system a "person"?

Think about this and get back to me. I am interested. Drinking Beverage

That is the philosophical question, now isn't it? When does "life" begin? As a blasto it is not a fully formed person, but it has all the information it needs to form a person. Prior to being viable (around 24 weeks) it will have all the systems it needs to live on, but it will not be ready to do so. It is so debated and disagreed upon becasue it is not so clear cut like birth and death.

No, prior to 24 weeks it does not have 'all the systems' to be viable. That is not in any way a person.
It is very clear-cut to a rational mind.

Every cell has the information needed to form a person. We shed thousands of cells every day.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2014, 11:27 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 07:33 AM)wazzel Wrote:  That is the philosophical question, now isn't it? When does "life" begin? As a blasto it is not a fully formed person, but it has all the information it needs to form a person. Prior to being viable (around 24 weeks) it will have all the systems it needs to live on, but it will not be ready to do so. It is so debated and disagreed upon becasue it is not so clear cut like birth and death.

No, prior to 24 weeks it does not have 'all the systems' to be viable. That is not in any way a person.
It is very clear-cut to a rational mind.

Every cell has the information needed to form a person. We shed thousands of cells every day.

Not to mention that babies born (although technology has improved the odds) between 24-26 week range usually suffer from a host of health issues for their entire lives and many still don't survive at all.

Both my kids were considered "premies" and I can tell the NICU staff would always warn parents with neonates, the odds were certainly not in the child's favor. For every ONE success story people routinely dig up, there are many, many more that didn't make it.

Viability increases greatly around 26-28 weeks.

Also, must remember that when counting pregnancy months it's really 10 months and not really 9. They also count from the date of the last period so that generally includes 2 weeks where subject isn't even pregnant. So 24 weeks pregnant, can really mean 22 weeks in gestational time.

My youngest son was due in October and born in mid August.

There was a "full term baby" admitted to the NICU while he was there, who was having difficulty breathing. Despite his large, heathy appearance the neonatologist confirmed the child was indeed premature -- the mother had delivered around 36 weeks, but the child was really only 33 weeks.


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