Abortion, choice or murder?
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04-02-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
It's a deliciously murderific choice. Drooling

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04-02-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
So is anyone crazy as to think that 1+ million adoptions are really possible? 1.13+ MILLION abortions was the number back in 2011.

IF total adoption was really a probable truth - there'd be no kids in foster-care or orphanages. And yet..........

so there ya go.

Its all fine and fuzzy to say "Oh save all those babies"........ but no one can really guarantee that they will be loved, fed and someday sent to college.
So........

yeah............

can we just be a little bit realistic please?
An unwanted pregnancy is that............an unwanted pregnancy.
Babies are babies. The two are NOT the same.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-02-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, prior to 24 weeks it does not have 'all the systems' to be viable. That is not in any way a person.
It is very clear-cut to a rational mind.
It is definitely a person.
It has a unique set of DNA that will never appear again on planet Earth.
Built into that unique DNA are many physical and behavioral aspects which will greatly shape this person through the various stages of their life (If it is allowed to continue with its life)

But the choice of killing it is the mother's rather than the government's and it certainly isn't a bystander's choice.
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04-02-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:27 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 11:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, prior to 24 weeks it does not have 'all the systems' to be viable. That is not in any way a person.
It is very clear-cut to a rational mind.

Every cell has the information needed to form a person. We shed thousands of cells every day.

Not to mention that babies born (although technology has improved the odds) between 24-26 week range usually suffer from a host of health issues for their entire lives and many still don't survive at all.

Both my kids were considered "premies" and I can tell the NICU staff would always warn parents with neonates, the odds were certainly not in the child's favor. For every ONE success story people routinely dig up, there are many, many more that didn't make it.

Viability increases greatly around 26-28 weeks.

Also, must remember that when counting pregnancy months it's really 10 months and not really 9. They also count from the date of the last period so that generally includes 2 weeks where subject isn't even pregnant. So 24 weeks pregnant, can really mean 22 weeks in gestational time.

My youngest son was due in October and born in mid August.

There was a "full term baby" admitted to the NICU while he was there, who was having difficulty breathing. Despite his large, heathy appearance the neonatologist confirmed the child was indeed premature -- the mother had delivered around 36 weeks, but the child was really only 33 weeks.

Hope the two you do not mind me addressing this in one post. I do not disagree with the facts you presented. Science can provide us with the facts on when it can live one it's own, how it developed, etc. When that mass of cells has value as a "person" is not a cut and dry answer. Ask any random group of people and you will get answers ranging from conception to birth. While your system is rational to you consider that others consider their system rational also.
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04-02-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I was going to keep my mouth shut on this subject~but at the risk of being degraded, here goes. I had an abortion 4 years ago. The reasons or circumstances behind it aren't important. What IS important is that I was pregnant and made the CHOICE not to be. Now I know everybody doesn't agree with that decision, but what I think is important to remember here is that nobody else's opinion matters~it was my decision to make. Do I feel like a murderer? No, not at all. Murder is illegal, abortion is not. Do I regret having it done? No, not at all. It wasn't a decision I made lightly and I considered all options before I made the decision~a decision I knew I would have to live with for the rest of my life. I can understand how it pisses people off when women just spread their legs and aren't careful and pay a doctor to "fix" their mistake....but that isn't always the case and I don't think the government should ever have a voice on the matter.

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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04-02-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:33 AM)wazzel Wrote:  That is the philosophical question, now isn't it? When does "life" begin?

IMHO, that's the wrong philosophical question. Life began some number of billion years ago, and is continuous from that point on. The sperm and the egg, prior to fertilization, are both alive.

Life is almost irrelevant to the philosophical question that should be asked, which is, what should be given legal rights as a person.

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04-02-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 12:03 PM)toadaly Wrote:  IMHO, that's the wrong philosophical question. Life began some number of billion years ago, and is continuous from that point on. The sperm and the egg, prior to fertilization, are both alive.

Life is almost irrelevant to the philosophical question that should be asked, which is, what should be given legal rights as a person.
Or we could ask the question, what is the purpose of government, what is the purpose of law?
Is it to control people's decisions? or is it to ensure society is able to function and thrive?
If it is the latter then it is obvious that abortions do not fit into the government's agenda.
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04-02-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:42 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 11:27 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Not to mention that babies born (although technology has improved the odds) between 24-26 week range usually suffer from a host of health issues for their entire lives and many still don't survive at all.

Both my kids were considered "premies" and I can tell the NICU staff would always warn parents with neonates, the odds were certainly not in the child's favor. For every ONE success story people routinely dig up, there are many, many more that didn't make it.

Viability increases greatly around 26-28 weeks.

Also, must remember that when counting pregnancy months it's really 10 months and not really 9. They also count from the date of the last period so that generally includes 2 weeks where subject isn't even pregnant. So 24 weeks pregnant, can really mean 22 weeks in gestational time.

My youngest son was due in October and born in mid August.

There was a "full term baby" admitted to the NICU while he was there, who was having difficulty breathing. Despite his large, heathy appearance the neonatologist confirmed the child was indeed premature -- the mother had delivered around 36 weeks, but the child was really only 33 weeks.

Hope the two you do not mind me addressing this in one post. I do not disagree with the facts you presented. Science can provide us with the facts on when it can live one it's own, how it developed, etc. When that mass of cells has value as a "person" is not a cut and dry answer. Ask any random group of people and you will get answers ranging from conception to birth. While your system is rational to you consider that others consider their system rational also.

No, the other arguments are not actually rational - they are emotional or doctrinal.

Only the use of the biological facts can be considered rational.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2014, 12:15 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 12:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Or we could ask the question, what is the purpose of government, what is the purpose of law?
Is it to control people's decisions? or is it to ensure society is able to function and thrive?
If it is the latter then it is obvious that abortions do not fit into the government's agenda.

The purpose of law, is to ensure the power and continuity of the state. That's somewhat perpendicular to philosophical contemplation of personhood, although ultimately, laws determine what is or isn't protected.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-02-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:42 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 11:27 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Not to mention that babies born (although technology has improved the odds) between 24-26 week range usually suffer from a host of health issues for their entire lives and many still don't survive at all.

Both my kids were considered "premies" and I can tell the NICU staff would always warn parents with neonates, the odds were certainly not in the child's favor. For every ONE success story people routinely dig up, there are many, many more that didn't make it.

Viability increases greatly around 26-28 weeks.

Also, must remember that when counting pregnancy months it's really 10 months and not really 9. They also count from the date of the last period so that generally includes 2 weeks where subject isn't even pregnant. So 24 weeks pregnant, can really mean 22 weeks in gestational time.

My youngest son was due in October and born in mid August.

There was a "full term baby" admitted to the NICU while he was there, who was having difficulty breathing. Despite his large, heathy appearance the neonatologist confirmed the child was indeed premature -- the mother had delivered around 36 weeks, but the child was really only 33 weeks.

Hope the two you do not mind me addressing this in one post. I do not disagree with the facts you presented. Science can provide us with the facts on when it can live one it's own, how it developed, etc. When that mass of cells has value as a "person" is not a cut and dry answer. Ask any random group of people and you will get answers ranging from conception to birth. While your system is rational to you consider that others consider their system rational also.

I do not consider people who believe "life" (a completely subjective term in this case) begins at "conception" to be rational in the least. There are already people and lawmakers calling for "investigations" into miscarriages or spontaneous abortions.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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