Abortion, choice or murder?
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04-02-2014, 01:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 02:09 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
To be clear, there is life. Definitely there is living human tissue and living human cells there. And yes you are killing that during abortion.

But the question of when does the clump become not just a "potential person" but an actual individual person is unanswerable. Because no matter what definition is used to define when life begins, there will be a large % of people who disagree. It's useless to debate, nobody is going to convince anybody else "when life begins." You can go and learn for yourself the gestation process and come to your own conclusion. Just don't expect others to accept your conclusion as true. Take your conclusion, and apply it to your own damn life. Nobody forces you to get an abortion (in the U.S.), be thankful for that. Yes

I have no more attachment/sympathy to a first term "unborn child" than I do with a cup full of sperm.

Abortion is one of the best things we allow, as a species that multiplies without care for the planet, or for available resources.

Again, I <3 abortion.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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04-02-2014, 02:37 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I don't like abortion, I think is one of the most extremes situations a human being can face. But is that extreme and complexity that makes it necessary to be dealt with in a personal and case by case basis.

It shouldn't be taken lightly or humorously just because. It must be something to talk about, something to be understood and learned as one of the harsh things the human condition brings upon us.

As a political stand-point, there's a moto the feminist movement use here and I think it summarises quite well my point of view: "Sexual education to decide, contraceptives so as not to abort, abortion so as not to die" or something like that, kind of hard to translate

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04-02-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(03-02-2014 10:37 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 09:35 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  Here is what I always propose to the anti-abortion people:

Get together and figure out the numbers for how many extra kids would be brought into this world if abortion were illegal and those kids were put up for adoption. Figure out how many of those kids, on average, will be born with special needs. Figure out how many of those kids, on average, will have medical conditions like asthma, epilepsy, diabetes, etc. Then figure how much it will cost to feed, clothe, medicate, and educate all of those children, and agree that all of you are willing to pay your share of the extra tax dollars that it would cost to do this, and if you can't come to an agreement, then keep your mouth shut. I'm incredibly sick of all the self-righteous Republicans that constantly bitch about taxes that are the same ones that preach about how they care so much for the unborn, yet the minute that child is born they throw their hands up in the air and say "Baby is sick? Has a medical condition? My taxes shouldn't have to pay for that! Not my problem!" They want to talk about how they care so much and give themselves a pat on the back for being anti-abortion, but if they are asked to do their part to make sure that these children have adequate health care they are nowhere to be found.

If anti-abortion people are not willing to back their shit up, then this shouldn't even be an issue. I have a serious problem with the way children with special needs suffer from such a high rate of child neglect and abuse, and you'll never hear me bitch about paying higher taxes to increase funding for child services programs. If, as anti-abortion people claim, that it's an issue of morality, then they should be willing to do their part to make sure that these children would be properly cared for. Otherwise, they need to STFU.

I'll take this one step further. These bastards demand young unwed girls have the baby and then when they do they shun them for being a single parent having a kid out of wedlock. Sounds just like a Christian, doesn't it?

Sure does.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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04-02-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
I've long been pro-choice because as a former social worker, I've seen just how short society falls from being able to care for the needs of all the children we have, let alone the millions more that would be born if abortion just disappeared overnight.

I don't advocate abortion as a method of birth control. It shouldn't be your back up plan when pulling out doesn't work. But I would rather it be available even for the poor planners than not at all.

I had an abortion about two years ago. I have been told by two doctors that I can't get pregnant anymore, and my fiancé has had a vasectomy. We thought we were pretty safe. It blows my mind still that ot happened, but it did. I had my first child when I was 18 and have been struggling since then to provide a better life for her. It's not easy. Things were just starting to go right when I found out. I had just opened a college account for my daughter and we were looking to buy a house. All of that would have gone right out the window if we would have decided to keep it. I wojld have had to quit my job (I have major complications during pregnancy but not enoigh to be considered life threatening were we in a country that restricted abortion to those cases). It was the only option for us. I couldn't provide for two children near what I can provide for one, and my dedication belongs to her.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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04-02-2014, 03:47 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 12:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 12:18 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I do not consider people who believe "life" (a completely subjective term in this case) begins at "conception" to be rational in the least.
What is your definition of life?

A living fertilised egg grows and is somewhat self healing from disease etc.
A dead fertilised egg does not grow and degrades with disease e.g. bacteria etc.

In this particular case....as stated life is a subjective term. It can have broad and narrow meanings. I'm using the more narrow view.

The way "life" is interchanged or swapped with "existing". A fertilized egg may exist. But it does have a "life" until it is born, hatched or whatever.

A person might be technically "alive" but completely lack "life".

When I think of someone completely paralyzed due to illness, mentally sharp, but unable to communicate they are alive but lack quality of "life".

An embryo is really a parasite, as it needs a suitable host to survive until it is born.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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04-02-2014, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 04:10 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 03:34 PM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  I don't advocate abortion as a method of birth control. It shouldn't be your back up plan when pulling out doesn't work. But I would rather it be available even for the poor planners than not at all.
Just out of curiosity, why is it okay to be the backup plan in some cases, but not the backup plan in others? if two people who knew the risks associated with abortion and just "pulling out" had abortion as a backup plan, and used their own money to fund it, why is that something they shouldn't do? Is your view that it is best to minimize the total number of abortions ever performed?

Edit: Mostly I'm curious if you are condemning abortion or condemning stupidity.

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04-02-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 12:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 12:40 PM)wazzel Wrote:  FWIW I have yet to sort out my personal opinion of when that mass of cells has value as a person. I think it is some time before what is termed viability but some time after conception.
Given that there is no objectively measurable point, you can just make it up based on what point in development makes you feel comfortable accepting other people having abortions.

But there is an objectively measurable point: prior to the formation of a nervous system.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 12:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Given that there is no objectively measurable point, you can just make it up based on what point in development makes you feel comfortable accepting other people having abortions.

But there is an objectively measurable point: prior to the formation of a nervous system.
That is the point at which pain could be experienced but whose is to say that this is the requirement for personhood?
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04-02-2014, 05:32 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 05:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  But there is an objectively measurable point: prior to the formation of a nervous system.
That is the point at which pain could be experienced but whose is to say that this is the requirement for personhood?

If a mass of cells without a nervous system is a person, so's a tumor. Thumbsup


The point is that it is an objective criterion from which we can reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-02-2014, 05:35 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Ohio Sky, I offer much sympathy. Faced with a difficult decision you did what you knew to be best.

Again I will state that abortion is a personal decision. The state and no damn religious people should have any say in it. Nor others who have a twisted belief that that zygote has more rights than the mother and family who must then take care of it.
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