Abortion, choice or murder?
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04-02-2014, 11:39 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:25 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I fail to see how DNA uniqueness means abortion is bad
Who said that abortion is bad?
I'm arguing that even if the unborn has a fully developed nervous system that still doesn't justify us interfering in the mother's choice to abort.
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04-02-2014, 11:41 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:27 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Why should we care about potential? Why does potential deserve legal protection, or at least even ethical consideration?
Who said we should care about potential?
It is your choice whether you care about things or not. It is not for me to say what you should do.

I don't think unborns should have any legal protection.
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04-02-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 11:25 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I fail to see how DNA uniqueness means abortion is bad
Who said that abortion is bad?
I'm arguing that even if the unborn has a fully developed nervous system that still doesn't justify us interfering in the mother's choice to abort.

Oh, sorry, didn't follow the thread with as much attention as I should have Tongue

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05-02-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
Quote:To me, it's all a gray area. There _IS_, imo, unquestionably some point where the child has his own right to live,

Yeah...when its 18 and can move out and support itself!

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05-02-2014, 01:11 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 12:09 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:To me, it's all a gray area. There _IS_, imo, unquestionably some point where the child has his own right to live,

Yeah...when its 18 and can move out and support itself!

Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

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05-02-2014, 01:31 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 08:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But still the point is choice. You don't like abortion, don't have one. But don't tell me that I can't just because you don't like it.

So you think there should be no restrictions? Can the mother wait until her due date, and when the head comes out, ask the doctor to hold up a mirror and say "Damn, I wanted blue eyes. Abort her, please." Or, do you accept that at some point the child changes and is no longer a blob of cells and becomes a living human being who has own right to live distinct from the mother? If so, where do you draw the line? At the point of viability? At the moment of birth? Only after cutting the umbilical cord? Heck, why stop there. Wait not wait until the kid is 16 and starts to rebel to have an abortion.

To me, it's all a gray area. There _IS_, imo, unquestionably some point where the child has his own right to live, and I think that it's just a matter of drawing lines in the sand where that is. Conservatives generally say conception, liberals more likely to say viability. However, US abortion laws are actually very lenient. In many liberal European countries abortion is only allowed up till 3 months.

The thing I hate about abortion, though, are the ridiculous labels. "Pro-life", as though the other side is "anti-life" and just wants to kill babies. And the "pro-choice" is just as hypocritical since most of them are NOT at all pro-choice. If the woman wants to deliver a dangerous pregnancy at home with a midwife, these same liberals say that it's not a woman's choice, and the police need to intervene to protect the baby. Which is actually the same argument the conservatives use if she wants an abortion. And they'll say it's a woman's body, and it's her choice, and government must stay out of her vagina. So I always ask "Well what if she wants to get high shoving heroin up there?" Suddenly they change: "Oh, well that's not an acceptable use of the vagina, send the government in there." So it's not like they're REALLY pro-choice, or they REALLY think women have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies. In fact, they're as "anti-choice" as the conservatives. The only difference is they draw the arbitrary line in the sand where the fetus becomes a separate human being at a different place.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't like a label, don't use it.


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05-02-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

"some liquid" = dog jizz

You must have just swallowed.
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05-02-2014, 02:50 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 08:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But still the point is choice. You don't like abortion, don't have one. But don't tell me that I can't just because you don't like it.

So you think there should be no restrictions? Can the mother wait until her due date, and when the head comes out, ask the doctor to hold up a mirror and say "Damn, I wanted blue eyes. Abort her, please." Or, do you accept that at some point the child changes and is no longer a blob of cells and becomes a living human being who has own right to live distinct from the mother? If so, where do you draw the line? At the point of viability? At the moment of birth? Only after cutting the umbilical cord? Heck, why stop there. Wait not wait until the kid is 16 and starts to rebel to have an abortion.

To me, it's all a gray area. There _IS_, imo, unquestionably some point where the child has his own right to live, and I think that it's just a matter of drawing lines in the sand where that is. Conservatives generally say conception, liberals more likely to say viability. However, US abortion laws are actually very lenient. In many liberal European countries abortion is only allowed up till 3 months.

The thing I hate about abortion, though, are the ridiculous labels. "Pro-life", as though the other side is "anti-life" and just wants to kill babies. And the "pro-choice" is just as hypocritical since most of them are NOT at all pro-choice. If the woman wants to deliver a dangerous pregnancy at home with a midwife, these same liberals say that it's not a woman's choice, and the police need to intervene to protect the baby. Which is actually the same argument the conservatives use if she wants an abortion. And they'll say it's a woman's body, and it's her choice, and government must stay out of her vagina. So I always ask "Well what if she wants to get high shoving heroin up there?" Suddenly they change: "Oh, well that's not an acceptable use of the vagina, send the government in there." So it's not like they're REALLY pro-choice, or they REALLY think women have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies. In fact, they're as "anti-choice" as the conservatives. The only difference is they draw the arbitrary line in the sand where the fetus becomes a separate human being at a different place.

I think mostly you just like to argue. I like viablility butthe problem with it is that who is to say when I fetus is viable? There's no way to be sure. Even full term babies die after birth due to complications. If we limit abortion to viability then as soon as the mother can no longer have an abortion she should be allowed to induce labor deliver the baby and leave it at the hospital to be put up for adoption. Then again, late term abortions shouldn't be necessary unless it's because of medical complications. Abortion should be cheap and easy to access. If conservatives don't like it then tell them to start educating young people about protection instead of preaching abstinence. We have all seen how well that works.

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05-02-2014, 04:35 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:33 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

"some liquid" = dog jizz

You must have just swallowed.

Chippy, this is an interesting thread. Keep your venom for the ones I don't mind throwing in the pit. You have been here long enough now to understand the way the forum works. Following people into serious threads just to spew venom is not appropriate behavior for this forum.

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05-02-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 12:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Given that there is no objectively measurable point, you can just make it up based on what point in development makes you feel comfortable accepting other people having abortions.

But there is an objectively measurable point: prior to the formation of a nervous system.
So you have taken a step back from viability?
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