Abortion, choice or murder?
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05-02-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 07:16 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 08:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  But still the point is choice. You don't like abortion, don't have one. But don't tell me that I can't just because you don't like it.

So you think there should be no restrictions? Can the mother wait until her due date, and when the head comes out, ask the doctor to hold up a mirror and say "Damn, I wanted blue eyes. Abort her, please." Or, do you accept that at some point the child changes and is no longer a blob of cells and becomes a living human being who has own right to live distinct from the mother? If so, where do you draw the line? At the point of viability? At the moment of birth? Only after cutting the umbilical cord? Heck, why stop there. Wait not wait until the kid is 16 and starts to rebel to have an abortion.

To me, it's all a gray area. There _IS_, imo, unquestionably some point where the child has his own right to live, and I think that it's just a matter of drawing lines in the sand where that is. Conservatives generally say conception, liberals more likely to say viability. However, US abortion laws are actually very lenient. In many liberal European countries abortion is only allowed up till 3 months.

The thing I hate about abortion, though, are the ridiculous labels. "Pro-life", as though the other side is "anti-life" and just wants to kill babies. And the "pro-choice" is just as hypocritical since most of them are NOT at all pro-choice. If the woman wants to deliver a dangerous pregnancy at home with a midwife, these same liberals say that it's not a woman's choice, and the police need to intervene to protect the baby. Which is actually the same argument the conservatives use if she wants an abortion. And they'll say it's a woman's body, and it's her choice, and government must stay out of her vagina. So I always ask "Well what if she wants to get high shoving heroin up there?" Suddenly they change: "Oh, well that's not an acceptable use of the vagina, send the government in there." So it's not like they're REALLY pro-choice, or they REALLY think women have the right to decide what to do with their own bodies. In fact, they're as "anti-choice" as the conservatives. The only difference is they draw the arbitrary line in the sand where the fetus becomes a separate human being at a different place.

Jesus Frank. Really? So a 16 year old is analagous with a fetus still living inside a woman's body? I completely reject that.

The moment of abortion ends when the fetus is pushed from the womb. When it breathes for the first time, it is now granted bodily automy and the woman is no longer imposed on. Any point before that - abortion should be a choice because it's still using the mother's body.

I lost my son at 8 months. He had strangled himself inside me. His decaying body was poisoning my blood and labor had to be induced. Technically, it's a late term abortion. Had I been in a third world country, I would have died from blood poisoning before the baby delivered.

He didn't get a death certificate because he was never alive.

If abortion was illegal, I also would have died because even though the fetus was already dead, I would have no medical options.

It should be a case by case basis on the decision that directly involves the parents, with the mother's choice superceding the father's because she takes on the greatest risk.

No one has the right to use my body, poison my body, or put my health at risk without my consent.

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05-02-2014, 08:04 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 07:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  He didn't get a death certificate because he was never alive.

That.

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05-02-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
My views on abortion are.... complicated. Don't get me wrong, I am for women's right to choose, and for abortion to be legalized. However, I would advise against it if a better alternative is presented to you. Sometimes, that is not the case.

My Not blood related cousin had a child, and the doctors told her that it had a very high probability for having a birth defect, and a quite severe one (I don't exactly remember what it was), and that she was advised to terminate the pregnancy. She was offered a choice, and she choose to give birth.

For two weeks, my cousin's baby constantly suffered. For two weeks, my cousin and her husband had to suffer watching their first child suffer.

Now, while the choice was hers, I personally believe that the abortion was the better, pain-less way out.

It's situations like these that make the "No comprimise" position on abortions fucking stupid.

That is all.

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05-02-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 09:18 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  My views on abortion are.... complicated. Don't get me wrong, I am for women's right to choose, and for abortion to be legalized. However, I would advise against it if a better alternative is presented to you. Sometimes, that is not the case.

My Not blood related cousin had a child, and the doctors told her that it had a very high probability for having a birth defect, and a quite severe one (I don't exactly remember what it was), and that she was advised to terminate the pregnancy. She was offered a choice, and she choose to give birth.

For two weeks, my cousin's baby constantly suffered. For two weeks, my cousin and her husband had to suffer watching their first child suffer.

Now, while the choice was hers, I personally believe that the abortion was the better, pain-less way out.

It's situations like these that make the "No comprimise" position on abortions fucking stupid.

That is all.

That kind of situation really sucks A2, because a very high probability doesn't mean a certainty. I was told with my first that she would have Down syndrome and a very high risk of birth defects. I gave birth, no Down syndrome no birth defects. It's a risk either way and a hard decision for most people to make.

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05-02-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
That is why it is still so controversial. It IS a hard decision to make.

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05-02-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
My mom had my at 37 and my little bro at 43. I believe both of us had great risks of having some sort of birth defect. I'm not saying "Thank goodness my mom chose to keep me instead of abort!" Because honestly, if I had been aborted, I would never know about it. Nothing to be sad about.

But I will say, the viewpoint that some potential kids are worth having while other potential kids are not worth having always stung me as hypocritical. If you really believe that the fetus or [other stages] is a human individual with a distinct personhood and life, then why are some lives worth saving and not others? I understand the costs of raising a child with special needs are greater. But if you believe it is killing a baby (like "pro life" people claim to), does that give you the right to "kill"? Similarly saying it's ok to abort in case of rape (while holding the stance that other reasons for abortion are wrong) rubs me the wrong way.

Save the babies!!!!.....unless x, y, or z. Then you can, ya know. Kill em. Dodgy

p.s. not at all talking about when the mother is in danger. And just to reiterate, I am pro-abortion. I am an abortion cheer leader. hurrah hurrah. Just saying, if you are going to be "pro life", then be pro life.

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05-02-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 01:11 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 12:09 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Yeah...when its 18 and can move out and support itself!

Good thing for you that I just happened to not have my mouth full of some liquid when I read that, I'd be sending you a bill for a new monitor.

Ah, yes... one of these...

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05-02-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(04-02-2014 03:50 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 03:34 PM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  I don't advocate abortion as a method of birth control. It shouldn't be your back up plan when pulling out doesn't work. But I would rather it be available even for the poor planners than not at all.
Just out of curiosity, why is it okay to be the backup plan in some cases, but not the backup plan in others? if two people who knew the risks associated with abortion and just "pulling out" had abortion as a backup plan, and used their own money to fund it, why is that something they shouldn't do? Is your view that it is best to minimize the total number of abortions ever performed?

Edit: Mostly I'm curious if you are condemning abortion or condemning stupidity.

No I'm absolutely condemning stupidity, not abortion. Because the point at which the fetus is viable or when life begins are so highly contested, I think the responsible thing to do is minimize the risk in the first place. It's much better, when possible, to prevent having to make such a difficult decision. But there are many instances where contraception fails or isn't an option to begin with, and the choice should be abailable when needed. If someone fails to even attempt to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, I don't approve of their actions, but forcing them to carry an unwanted pregnancy isn't a just punishment for making a mistake, and certaonly isn't fair to the child that will result.

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05-02-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 10:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  That is why it is still so controversial. It IS a hard decision to make.

Most of the time when we have really hard really personal decisions to make other people butt out, out of respect. I feel like the fact that the decision on whether or not to abort (regardless of the circumstances of why a person is faced with the decision) is so hard and so personal that it should make the issue non controversial. It is completely disrespectful to stick your nose into someone else's personal business especially when they're going through a hard time.

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05-02-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: Abortion, choice or murder?
(05-02-2014 10:29 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  My mom had my at 37 and my little bro at 43. I believe both of us had great risks of having some sort of birth defect. I'm not saying "Thank goodness my mom chose to keep me instead of abort!" Because honestly, if I had been aborted, I would never know about it. Nothing to be sad about.

But I will say, the viewpoint that some potential kids are worth having while other potential kids are not worth having always stung me as hypocritical. If you really believe that the fetus or [other stages] is a human individual with a distinct personhood and life, then why are some lives worth saving and not others? I understand the costs of raising a child with special needs are greater. But if you believe it is killing a baby (like "pro life" people claim to), does that give you the right to "kill"? Similarly saying it's ok to abort in case of rape (while holding the stance that other reasons for abortion are wrong) rubs me the wrong way.

Save the babies!!!!.....unless x, y, or z. Then you can, ya know. Kill em. Dodgy

p.s. not at all talking about when the mother is in danger. And just to reiterate, I am pro-abortion. I am an abortion cheer leader. hurrah hurrah. Just saying, if you are going to be "pro life", then be pro life.
Well I won't go as far as to say I'm an abortion cheerleader, but I do see what you're saying Smile and it makes perfect sense. I do feel horrible for people who live where abortion is illegal. Not that I condone it in all instances~I do hope people consider all options before choosing abortion~but the RIGHT to do so should always be there.

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