About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
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25-10-2013, 03:30 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 03:11 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Ok, fair enough but the above still holds. An immaterial being is not composed of parts. If something is not constituted by parts then no conceivable process of change is possible. Any sort of change entails one or more of a loss of a part, the addition of a part or a rearrangement of existing parts. It is impossible to conceive of change apart from these fundamental relationships between the parts of a thing and the whole of the thing. Learning is a process that entails some sort of change; if a God is learning then it is necessarily changing which would violate its omniscience in the first place but it would also violate its immutability and immateriality.

Lets say that when God created this world, He created all possible worlds and all possible things....including Ewoks and Unicorns....at the same time. When George Lucas thought of Ewoks, it wasn't him who created the concept, but rather him who discovered what God had already created and had knowledge about. Doesn't the argument suggest that if God knows every possible thing, then every possible thing has to exist?

Lets move away from this idea that if you think it God will create it. God already created it(or it already existed) is just as valid a conclusion of the argument methinks.
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25-10-2013, 03:54 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 03:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Doesn't the argument suggest that if God knows every possible thing, then every possible thing has to exist?

No. God's omniscience doesn't depend on the existence of the ensemble of universes containing all possible worlds; it can't depend on anything because if it did that would reduce him to a contingency. If any aspect of God's existence becomes contingent then you will have stripped Him of His status as the uncaused cause.
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25-10-2013, 03:57 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 03:54 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 03:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Doesn't the argument suggest that if God knows every possible thing, then every possible thing has to exist?

No. God's omniscience doesn't depend on the existence of the ensemble of universes containing all possible worlds; it can't depend on anything because if it did that would reduce him to a contingency. If any aspect of God's existence becomes contingent then you will have stripped Him of His status as the uncaused cause.

That's checkmate, right? Consider

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25-10-2013, 04:03 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 03:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 03:54 AM)Chippy Wrote:  No. God's omniscience doesn't depend on the existence of the ensemble of universes containing all possible worlds; it can't depend on anything because if it did that would reduce him to a contingency. If any aspect of God's existence becomes contingent then you will have stripped Him of His status as the uncaused cause.

That's checkmate, right? Consider

No...I have a response....but It will have to wait. I am going to bed.
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25-10-2013, 06:43 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 04:03 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 03:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That's checkmate, right? Consider

No...I have a response....but It will have to wait. I am going to bed.

I get exhausted too when I try to prove that the entire Star Wars saga is going on right now in the Andromeda Galaxy. I've had several revelations from Yoda himself.

It only follows that every book of fiction that man has ever written actually exists out there in it's own separate galaxy.

I mean that's only logical right ? Big Grin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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25-10-2013, 07:50 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
The OP makes no sense. I mean I get what it is trying to say (sort of in a desperate kind of way), but to me it goes more against the crediblity of a Christain god and not in favor of one. Good try as I have seen what one's mind needs to do in order to hold something as truth.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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25-10-2013, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2013 08:52 AM by Impulse.)
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(24-10-2013 07:18 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 07:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  By your own reasoning, God would only have to create the concept, not the actual thing, no matter what the thing is. There would be no necessity to actually create it.

He would have to create the concept to have knowledge about the concept. He would have to make it reality know about it in a real sense.

You're contradicting your own belief premise that your god is omniscient. Before anything was created, an omniscient god would already know everything that there is to know about anything. For such a being, concepts of everything already exists. If they didn't, he would have to learn some things (newly self-created concepts according to you) and wouldn't be all knowing.

Furthermore, if you also believe your god is omnipotent and creator of all things, then you believe that god created everything from nothing. He would obviously have already had all the knowledge to do so or he wouldn't have been able to do so. In fact, he would even have created the concept of a concept itself.

Edit:
After reading in another post that you don't necessarily thing God has to be all knowing, I corrected "belief" to "premise" above because "all knowing" is a premise of the argument you are making in this thread.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-10-2013, 09:06 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2013 09:31 AM by Impulse.)
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(24-10-2013 11:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(24-10-2013 11:25 PM)englishrose Wrote:  My head is about to explode, existence of unicorns proves existence of God and, specifically, the Christian one???????
Also, since when do atheists believe in ANY god?
AAAARRRGGGHHHH.

There is no proof of God in this discussion. It is an exploration into the "nasty" consequences of omniscience and omnipotence. The only conclusion I reached is if an atheist is willing to accept the possibility of and omniscient and omnipotent God, then they should also be willing to accept the possibility of the Christian God(or any other God for that matter). Some atheist will claim that it is possible for God to exist, but that it is impossible for the Christian God to exist. I find that position to be nonsensical if we are talking about an omniscient and omnipotent God.

To LostandInsecure: If an omniscient and omnipotent God exists and if a world of sexy super powers is logically possible, then God has created that world....but you don't live in it. Tongue
The only "nasty consequence" I have seen you express in this thread is that god allows a world with atheism. "Nasty" is a subjective assumption on your part so you're wrong on this premise too.

A person can easily believe a god is conceptually possible while knowing it can't be the Christian god. The Christian god is Jesus (well, technically the trinity, but that includes Jesus) who obviously is not god and most likely never even existed as a human. That's reason enough to dismiss the Christian god, but certainly doesn't dismiss all gods by itself.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-10-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 02:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Total Omniscience isn't something that I made up.

Total omniscience is omniscience. Inherent omniscience isn't omniscience at all and is a bunch of BS probably made up by some Christians trying to make their nonsense fit with reality. A being either knows everything without exception or they don't. Anything less isn't omniscience and is certainly not the Christian god. According to Christianity, no being can possibly be more knowledgeable than their God. By inherent omniscience, it would only take another being choosing to know more about things that can be known than the Christian god (and of course having the ability to acquire that knowledge) and that being would be more knowledgeable. Inherent omniscience leaves that door wide open.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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25-10-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 12:58 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 12:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The moment you have a thought about something which doesn't exist

Fuck off, you said if it's been thought about, it exists. That's the whole premise of your argument.

Kinda Catholic there...just thinking about committing a sin is a sin.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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