About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
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25-10-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
This whole argument is making my head explode...

Oh Shit! I just thought of my head exploding, and "God" knows I thought about that, and due to his extremely limited mental capabilities, the only way "God" can "know" about that thought is if it is true, which means now it is, and my head has, in fact, exploded.

Shit...I guess I'm dead...
Or alive (?) with an exploded head that looks and feels unexploded to my perception, but in fact is invisibly and intangibly exploded?

Shit...I'm back to not knowing what to believe anymore. Can someone please tell me if I'm dead or alive right now, because I thought about both of them, so I don't know which one I am right now. Kind of makes me nervous not knowing...

...
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25-10-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 10:08 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  This whole argument is making my head explode...

Oh Shit! I just thought of my head exploding, and "God" knows I thought about that, and due to his extremely limited mental capabilities, the only way "God" can "know" about that thought is if it is true, which means now it is, and my head has, in fact, exploded.

Shit...I guess I'm dead...
Or alive (?) with an exploded head that looks and feels unexploded to my perception, but in fact is invisibly and intangibly exploded?

Shit...I'm back to not knowing what to believe anymore. Can someone please tell me if I'm dead or alive right now, because I thought about both of them, so I don't know which one I am right now. Kind of makes me nervous not knowing...

Go to the information desk it is just past the Leprechauns and Unicorns.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-10-2013, 10:17 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(24-10-2013 06:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Let me start making a point that while is obvious is often overlooked. In order to have knowledge about something, that something must exist. For instance in order to have knowledge about unicorns....unicorns must exist. You might be thinking, "Heywood you are a buffoon, unicorns do not exist yet I know they look like horse with a single horn in the middle of their head....I have knowledge about them". You don't have knowledge about unicorns because unicorns don't exist. What you have knowledge about is the concept of unicorns. Unicorns don't exist so there isn't any knowledge about them. The concept of unicorns exists so there is knowledge about that...and you might be privy to it.

What does this have to do with God? God isn't excluded from this brute fact of logic. For God to have knowledge about anything, that thing must exist. For God to know about unicorns, those horse like creatures with single horns on their heads, they must exist. If they do not exist, God can't know about them, He can only know about the concept of unicorns because the concept of unicorns exists.

If God knows all that is knowable, then in order for Him to have knowledge about Unicorns....God must create them.

I have heard many atheist claim that God is possible, but the Christian God is not. Well in order for God to know about a world governed by the rules of the Christian God, God has create a world and govern it as the Christian God. In order for God to know about a world governed by the Buddhist God, God must create that world and govern it as a Buddhist God.

It could be that this world is indeed governed by the Christen God even though you see no evidence for it. Why? Because in order for God to have knowledge about a world which is governed by the rules of Christianity, yet has no evidence of the veracity of Christianity, God has to create it.

If you are an atheist, who acknowledges the possibility of Gods existence, you have to also acknowledge the possibility you are living in a world governed by the rules of Christianity(without any evidence thereof) simply for the sake of God wanting to have knowledge about such a world. If you acknowledge that God might be possible, you have to acknowledge that it might be possible you are on the road to hell.

I'm sorry, but it's called for




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25-10-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 10:08 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  This whole argument is making my head explode...

Oh Shit! I just thought of my head exploding, and "God" knows I thought about that, and due to his extremely limited mental capabilities, the only way "God" can "know" about that thought is if it is true, which means now it is, and my head has, in fact, exploded.

Shit...I guess I'm dead...
Or alive (?) with an exploded head that looks and feels unexploded to my perception, but in fact is invisibly and intangibly exploded?

Shit...I'm back to not knowing what to believe anymore. Can someone please tell me if I'm dead or alive right now, because I thought about both of them, so I don't know which one I am right now. Kind of makes me nervous not knowing...
LOL, it's moments like these where it would be nice to be omniscient. Big Grin

Damn, gotta go. Just stepped in some unicorn shit. Dodgy

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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27-10-2013, 01:09 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 10:08 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  This whole argument is making my head explode...

Oh Shit! I just thought of my head exploding, and "God" knows I thought about that, and due to his extremely limited mental capabilities, the only way "God" can "know" about that thought is if it is true, which means now it is, and my head has, in fact, exploded.

Shit...I guess I'm dead...
Or alive (?) with an exploded head that looks and feels unexploded to my perception, but in fact is invisibly and intangibly exploded?

Shit...I'm back to not knowing what to believe anymore. Can someone please tell me if I'm dead or alive right now, because I thought about both of them, so I don't know which one I am right now. Kind of makes me nervous not knowing...

If the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, right at the moment you thought of your head exploding...it did....just in a different world.

Your head doesn't have to actually explode for God to know about it. He could instantly make an exact copy of this world and then explode your doppelganger's head.

I find you criticism a little comical because you don't need God to explode your head right when you think about it...all you need is quantum mechanics.
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27-10-2013, 01:13 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 07:50 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  The OP makes no sense. I mean I get what it is trying to say (sort of in a desperate kind of way), but to me it goes more against the crediblity of a Christain god and not in favor of one. Good try as I have seen what one's mind needs to do in order to hold something as truth.

I think your right...it does go against the credibility of some religions. However in discussing this thread, I have learned of two accepted definitions of omniscience. One definition allows God to choose what is knowable. That definition makes all those nasty implications go away.
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27-10-2013, 01:17 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(25-10-2013 03:54 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 03:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Doesn't the argument suggest that if God knows every possible thing, then every possible thing has to exist?

No. God's omniscience doesn't depend on the existence of the ensemble of universes containing all possible worlds; it can't depend on anything because if it did that would reduce him to a contingency. If any aspect of God's existence becomes contingent then you will have stripped Him of His status as the uncaused cause.

Chippy, Why does the uncaused cause have to be all knowing?
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27-10-2013, 07:30 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(27-10-2013 01:17 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Chippy, Why does the uncaused cause have to be all knowing?

He doesn't have to be anything, the uncaused cause has whatever properties the story-teller gives him. The traditional monotheistic deity in all of the major religions and even the so-called god of philosophers is "omni-max", i.e. omni everything and that includes omniscient.
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27-10-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(27-10-2013 01:13 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  One definition allows God to choose what is knowable.

It strikes me that this would not be omniscience at all. If god can choose to know something, that would mean that there is knowledge apart from him, that he has to learn. So he's not omniscient.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-10-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
I think the argument here is that:
1. An omniscient being knows everything - what's around every possible corner
2. To "know" so precisely the being must either have modelled or be able to model sufficiently far in advance in order to predict and know such things
3. A model with sufficient fidelity to make "know" predictions is itself a reality. The modelled beings in that reality can't tell the difference between model and reality, and what in the end is the difference between model and reality?
4. Therefore if an omniscient being exists then all possible realities (including all possible futures and all contemporary alternate realities) either do exist or can over time (or across some free dimension) be made to exist in order to preserve the property of omniscience.

Is that about right?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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