About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
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27-10-2013, 09:19 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(27-10-2013 01:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ...
I find you criticism a little comical ...

Irony is boundless...

...
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27-10-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
This is sounding all to familiar. Owl-man, Take it away



"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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27-10-2013, 11:56 PM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(27-10-2013 08:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think the argument here is that:
1. An omniscient being knows everything - what's around every possible corner
2. To "know" so precisely the being must either have modelled or be able to model sufficiently far in advance in order to predict and know such things
3. A model with sufficient fidelity to make "know" predictions is itself a reality. The modelled beings in that reality can't tell the difference between model and reality, and what in the end is the difference between model and reality?
4. Therefore if an omniscient being exists then all possible realities (including all possible futures and all contemporary alternate realities) either do exist or can over time (or across some free dimension) be made to exist in order to preserve the property of omniscience.

Is that about right?

Close enough. Basically if God is to know everything that can possibly be known then He has to in some sense create everything that can possibly be known.
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28-10-2013, 12:16 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(27-10-2013 11:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Basically if God is to know everything that can possibly be known then He has to in some sense create everything that can possibly be known.

If you assert omniscience for God then it seems pretty odd to put limits on *how* the guy can know something. You some kinda God yourself that you know what it takes ?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-10-2013, 02:01 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 12:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-10-2013 11:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Basically if God is to know everything that can possibly be known then He has to in some sense create everything that can possibly be known.

If you assert omniscience for God then it seems pretty odd to put limits on *how* the guy can know something. You some kinda God yourself that you know what it takes ?

To know about a something I know it takes that something to exist. Nothing magical or godlike about that....just common sense.
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28-10-2013, 02:56 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To know about a something I know it takes that something to exist. Nothing magical or godlike about that....just common sense.

If I invented a species of Christmas beetle and provided you a synopsis of it like this and I also provided that same synopsis of Anoplognathus viriditarsus you would not know which existed and which I had invented (unless you did a search for my fictional Christmas beetle). You would know the same amount of detail for both Christmas beetles yet one of them I invented. So clearly you can know about something which doesn't exist. There is nothing about the information that I gave you that would reveal that it exists only in my imagination.
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28-10-2013, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2013 09:16 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 02:56 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To know about a something I know it takes that something to exist. Nothing magical or godlike about that....just common sense.

If I invented a species of Christmas beetle and provided you a synopsis of it like this and I also provided that same synopsis of Anoplognathus viriditarsus you would not know which existed and which I had invented (unless you did a search for my fictional Christmas beetle). You would know the same amount of detail for both Christmas beetles yet one of them I invented. So clearly you can know about something which doesn't exist. There is nothing about the information that I gave you that would reveal that it exists only in my imagination.

I would have knowledge of a beetle that physically exists, and I would have knowledge of a beetle that exists only as a concept. I would know about two things that exist, the beetle and the concept. Had you(or someone else) not created the concept, I could only know about one thing.

When you say "clearly you can know about something which doesn't exist.", isn't that really saying, "clearly you can know about something which exists only as a concept?".
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28-10-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 12:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  If you assert omniscience for God then it seems pretty odd to put limits on *how* the guy can know something. You some kinda God yourself that you know what it takes ?

To know about a something I know it takes that something to exist. Nothing magical or godlike about that....just common sense.

And that's one reason you aren't god. A real god wouldn't have such limitations.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-10-2013, 10:10 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To know about a something I know it takes that something to exist. Nothing magical or godlike about that....just common sense.

And that's one reason you aren't god. A real god wouldn't have such limitations.

To have knowledge about something that is neither a conceptual thing nor a physical thing is nonsensical. You can't treat nonsense as sense by claiming God could magically do it....that's like saying God can magically make 2+2=5.
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28-10-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: About God and Knowledge and its nasty implications
(28-10-2013 10:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 09:50 AM)Impulse Wrote:  And that's one reason you aren't god. A real god wouldn't have such limitations.

To have knowledge about something that is neither a conceptual thing nor a physical thing is nonsensical. You can't treat nonsense as sense by claiming God could magically do it....that's like saying God can magically make 2+2=5.

Not for God if you believe in such nonsense to begin with. If God is the origin of all things, then God created all concepts. And, frankly, if that's what you believe then, yes, God could make 2+2=5.

I'm not going to argue about it all being nonsense though. That's one reason I'm an atheist.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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